Warbird Information Exchange

has dr. ballard ever been approached to search for amelia earhart's lockheed 10?? or has he ever thought of searching for it on his own?? he's the man to sniff that bird out!!

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Tom Friedman asks if Dr. Ballard has searched for Electra C/N 1055 ?

Why would Dr. Ballard search for it ? He is an expert underwater searcher. Is Tom Friedman saying that the Electra is underwater ?

Then I have certainly been wasting my time these past sixteen years for I have been looking on land.... terrible terrain that it is.
Quite frankly, it is about time some interest was directed from America towards my project on the island of New Britain. The evidence we have is excellent and yet it causes barely a ripple in America when it should be causing a wave..... You have had TIGHAR searching since about 1989 and lately Mr. Waitt has been having a go. Have a look at what we have for a change.

Too far a distance to travel you might say ? LAE-Vicinity of Howland Island and return to New Britain ? How does anyone "know" that AE & FN got anywhere near Howland ? They certainly would not be anywhere near Howland to see the sunrise and then fly down a 157 TRUE track. All evidence that we have says that they were late at the USCG Ontario at the half-way point so why would they be "on time" at Howland to see the surface time 6:15 sunrise ? My estimation is that they were at least 250 Sm from Howland when they started searching. The 157-337 "line" was no more than a Magnetic Heading line caused by turning 90 degrees off their approach track of 067 degrees M. Clarence Williams' strip map for LAE-HOW shows an approach Magnetic Course of 068. What is not to say that Noonan had some handle on the wind and told AE to steer 067 ? Does anyone know an aviator who works in TRUE degrees ?

My estimate of the out and return is 4200 Statute Miles on 1100 USG. Earhart herself planned to fly non-stop from DAKAR to ADEN, a distance of 4302 Statute Miles and the maximum fuel she could have carried was 1151 USG... However, the Lockheed figures say that 1276 USG would be required for that distance. I have not read anywhere that Earhart's Electra had the capability of being refuelled in mid-air the same as "The Daily Express" flown by Merrill and Lambie from Woodvale in the U.K. to Boston and New York as they did. If anyone has evidence of an inflight capability, please post it.

Clarence Williams' strip map for the DAKAR-ADEN sector clearly shows the flight for a time of 28 Hours and 40 Minutes. If you work that into Groundspeed you get the magical 150 mph "nil wind" speed that Earhart always used as a starter for flight planning.

So, either Earhart "knew" from her practical experience of flying the Electra that the ship could do that distance (and presumably still have some juice left for a missed approach); or, Earhart was banking on a favourable tailwind across Africa. Not only does the strip map show the flight, the U.S. papers ran the story of DAKAR-ADEN as quotes from Miss Earhart. If 4302 Sm was possible why knock 4200 Sm ?

O.K.... reaches for steel helmet....and flak jacket....

David Billings.

i'm not etching my opinion in stone, nor anyone elses. but the majority feedback of amelia's countless search buffs is that she was lost at sea. hence my post.... i've read all the rags / books with great theories as well as wacky ones. gillespie must be the elmer gantry of aviation history, & you must be 1 snarling "tighar"!!

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

So, Tom Friedman, because the majority feed-back that you have read all points to the opinions of having the Electra lost at sea, backed by the official U.S. Government version of the same idea; that then is the be-all and end-all and there is no other answer ? Is that it ? That is the sum total of your knowledge on the matter ? I have noticed that you have made several posts about the loss so you must have read the main elements of the saga. Americans have been told for 73 years that AE, FN and the Electra were lost at sea. There is no other answer. Do you continually wear blinkers or is it just a passing fad ?

As to your inference that I am a "Tighar" !!! Why is that Americans tend to go overboard and start the name calling before you even know what I am or who I am ? I have absolutely no connection to Tighar. I have read your opinion of Tighar and the reference to "snake oil" salesmen. It might interest you, Friedman, to know that I hold the same opinion.

I have absolutely nothing to do with Tighar, I do not live in the United States and I am not "1 snarling Tighar", which is a very strange thing to say after my post. Did you actually read my post ?

I have been quietly working away at an Earhart Project based on some unidentified wreckage seen in the New Britain jungle by an Australian patrol in WWII from which patrol veterans, a map surfaced in 1993 bearing "600 H/P S3H1 C/N 1055" written on the edge. The U.S. Army at that time, said that the wreck found was "not one of theirs". The wreck bore no nationality markings that the patrol could see and was bare metal (unpainted).

If you want to know more, I'll post more. If you want to start getting things out of kilter, I won't bother.


David Billings.

Not wanting to see a knock down drag out, between members,but I for one am very interested in hearing more about your theory.

It would seem that you've squarely put the ball into Mr .Friedman's court.

What you've offered thus far isn't way out there, IMHO. At least nothing like Tighars recent claims.

For Charles Neely:

The New Britain information is contained on my website: http://www.electranewbritain.com

If you read that and digest the information there I can then answer questions as they arise.

You opinion is that Tighar has the goods ?

The TIGHAR Hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis. There is no basis of evidence despite all the years and all the money that has been thrown at it (some US$5 million). Not one conclusive piece of evidence has arisen on Nikumaroro despite all the inferred claims made.

The hypothesis has as its' core the notion that AE & FN reached a sunline through Howland which existed at 6:15am local when the sunrise is at 067 degrees azimuth giving rise to the sunline at 157-337 degrees. NOTE: These degrees are TRUE degrees, not Magnetic. By the time AE & FN would have arrived in the vicinity of Howland, the sunline would have swung more to say, 140-300, for example as the sun would have moved Westwards. There is no evidence that they ever reached this point, ie, either Howland, or lateral to Howland. Aviators do not broadcast TRUE degrees, aviators use Magnetic.

"Strength 5" on HF has been touted as the evidence that AE & FN were "close" to Howland when we all know that S5 on HF can be had from thousands of miles away. Despite Tighar's own Radio Gurus saying this, many members of Tighar still believe the S5 is potent.

Bones found in 1940 by a Colonial Officer stationed on the then Gardner Island (now Nikumaroro) are sent to Tarawa and then on to Fiji for examination and are declared to be from a mixed-race MALE person of Pacific origin and of a height around 5 feet 6 inches. This declaration by a Dr. Hoodless who actually did handle the bones and took measurements. In modern times, these measurements have been fed into a computer and emerge as FEMALE, Nordic Origin, 5 feet 9 inches tall, which just happens to coincide with Earhart. Who made this calcaulation aside from the computer ? An anthropologist who is also a Tighar member who did not actually handle the bones as the bones have gone missing.

In 1929, the S.S. Norwich City ran aground on Gardner and 11 seamen from the crew perished and only the bodies of four were retrieved and buried in shallow coral graves. The survivors were rescued and the Pacific Islanders who rescued them were delighted to find large coconut crabs which they considered a delicacy. Now, we have heard all about these crabs scattering pig bones put there by Tighar and the horrible notion has been put out of a similar demise for AE & FN.

If AE & FN "missed" Howland after actually arriving in the vicinity and searched for an hour, on failure to find the island, AE's stated contingency was to return to The Gilberts. Why then, attempt to fly down a line from an unknown position and hope to hit one of the scattered Phoenix Group ? Would it not be far safer to stick to the plan, turn onto their reciprocal bearing and head back to The Gilberts and hit one of a large string of islands, 500 miles in length which lay at almost 90 degrees across their path ? If you miss the Phoenix Group, the next islands are Samoan.

That's all I have time for today.

David Billings.

David, I will check out your website. I'm no fan of the tighar theories either.

it is not my style to berate, or scoff at anybody's opinion on this topic or on anything on this board in general. i never have, nor never will. i apologize if my post was ill written or misconstrued in it's delivery. i'm far from an expert on amelia, i am well read on all facets of theory, & conjecture, & pie in the sky from many legit sources, & many off the wall ones re: her loss. however, the majority of material i've read over 30 years always leans to lost at sea, & to me it is the most realistic conclusion. many earhart researchers make the saga as if out of an indiana jones movie, & romanticize it's gray areas. i know their are many dedicated & knowledgeable authorities linked to this mystery & i do not discount any of their feedback. but from the many string of false alarm hypes from tighar to the media leaves me very skeptical. archeologists have made tougher links to locating primative man than what has been found of amelia's loss. this has been a sticky issue for decades, i'm not surprised it stirred up a beehive here, but rest assured it was not my intent to do so. tighars effort is noble, but i feel dr. ballard's approach is more methodical & organized.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

For Tom Friedman:

I am glad to be refreshed on what your style (policy) is. Your remarks did take me aback because it showed that you are either a speed reader with a low capture rate or just downright rude. Your assurance puts us back on an even keel and if you are offering an apology, it is accepted.

Please accept that there is "no hype" and "no BS" in my locker. I am putting forward our evidence of what was seen in 1945 of an unpainted metal aircraft wreck which had Pratt & Whitney engines and which was stated by the U.S. Army to be "not one of theirs", ie; not a missing U.S.A.A.F aircraft. That is fact. There are missing pieces of the puzzle still and I have my own hypothesis of what happened on that final flight.

For years the members of the patrol, at reunions, wondered "whose" aircraft it was but it was not suggested that it might be Earhart's until around 1990. The written evidence on the wartime map (shown on the website) appeared by accident. The map appeared in late 1993 and the later uncovered writing came to my notice in 1994. The annotation on the map which is a refererence: "600 H/P S3H1 C/N1055", does identify Earharts Electra 10E. This is shown on the website.

I started researching the whole deal at that time and have been into the jungle quite a few times looking for this wreck. My research has shown that no other R-1340 S3H1 powered aircraft went anywhere near to New Guinea before, during and immediately after WWII except for the Electra 10E and also except for some single-engined WWII Australian Wirraway aircraft (derivative of the N.A. Harvard) powered by the S3H1-G (Geared) engine and these put out 650 H.P. We have narrowed the search area down now and I was hoping to go again this year, but have had to call it off and wait for next year due to my son sustaining an accident and he will not be fit in time.

The website is getting a bit dated now but basically the only change is to the place where I consider the radio call "Land in sight ahead" was made (as reported by Goerner in his book "The Search for Amelia Earhart") (1st Edition). Georner found this call in a U.S. Navy file and wrote that it was made one-and-three-quarters of an hour after the supposed last call at 2014GMT (0844 Local ITASCA time).

You are quite right Mr. Friedman, the Tighar "Hype" and resulting scepticism has muddied the waters for all other "boots on the ground" people who search for AE & FN, it has certainly affected my own Project. Indeed, comments made by TIGHAR have not been helpful. However, I am still forging ahead and it has been 16 years now.

I think Ted Waitt and his Discovery Foundation have withdrawn from the search, after scouring the ocean bottom near Howland and finding nothing. Nautilus has not done anything for years. This leaves Tighar with the hype and hypothesis and no evidence and the New Britain Project with good evidence and no hype, no BS.

David Billings.

david, glad you can read between the lines as that above post is an apology for the tact i used. i never meant to bash the effort, but only to scrutinize some of the ways of the search is being carried out to solve the mystery.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

For Tom Friedman:

There are only very few ways with which anybody can endeavour to solve the mystery. I just happened to fall into the Earhart saga due to my previous attempts to find lost aircrew in New Guinea. Most of the lost are American crews. I have only found two lost aircraft, both American, which I have reported in. There are others who have done more. Brian Bennetts has found more American lost crew than anyone else in New Guinea and yet your people in JPAC did a dishonourable thing with Brian.

I myself was nearly a member of "lost aircrew" when I went down into trees in Sabah, North Bormeo in 1968, whilst in the Royal Air Force. As I stood looking at the wreck, I wondered who would have come looking for me if I had been killed. I said to myself that if I ever was in a position to find lost aircrew that I would.

That thought languished for many years until 1988 when I was working in Papua New Guinea and heard of what was possibly a "large" aircraft up on a ridgeline in the Finnesterre Range. I organised a team and we took two attempts to find this. At that altitude, the trees grow very slowly and it is a moss forest. Water is no problem, you just suck on the moss. When we did find it I recognised the unmistakable parts of a B-24, and when I and one of the guys turned over the starboard fin and saw the skull and crossbones on a blue background I recognised the insignia from the 90th Bomb Group. The B-24 was at 10,500 feet on a spurline and Lt. Drewelow and his Crew had been found after 46 years. It had gone straight in onto a spur angled at 45 degrees which was on the direct track from Nadzab to Hansa Bay. The B-24 was on a night mission to bomb a Japanese flying boat base. As the B-24 went in it struck a massive tree which was six feet in diameter at the bole but broken off at 25 feet height and in the years since, small, very small, branches had sprouted out from the break rather like the cluster of a dandelion. A tree that big at that altitude must have been hundreds of years old.

So, say what you like, that is basically the driving force and with this one, the search for Amelia and Fred (don't forget Fred), it is just as intense.

David Billings

To get back to the question...

Since the search area is 99.9% water, I fail to see what harm an underwater seach could do.
If the Lockheed's not there, they won't find it.
David Billings, a complete underwater seach would give your theory some additional credibility.

But, before Ballard (or anyone else of his ilk) gets involved looking for it, he'd need a solid lead.At least with the Titanic and Bismark, he had places to start looking.
Not to mention larger targets.

Even if you scoured the SW Pacific with a fleet of P-3s with the most powerful MAD gear available, thanks to WWII there are probably countless "hits" in the area.

IF it's on land (and thanks to years of TIGHAR's searches...which some might call teasings...many look at that possibilty with a jaundiced eye) ...there is probably a greater chance of finding something than if it went in the drink...

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.

It always seems incredible to me that most of the Earhart hunters seem to ignore one thing. Amelia Earhart herself.
If you read the transcripts of her radio calls she tell you herself where she is - running a course back and forth , low on fuel , can't see any land in sight. To the Naval people monitoring her radio calls , they all agree that it was quite apparent that in the last calls her voice was quite shrill and panicked. SHE knew they were going to ditch. That was a given by all involved.
I doubt very much she landed on an island, an atoll or my personal favorite became a prisoner of the Japanese. Just the wishful thinking of adventurer/ treasure hunters I'm afraid.
Don't get me wrong , I think it would be fantastic if her and Noonan's remains were found or the a/c itself but it's a great big ocean out there and the odds are stacked that they are three miles deep in water.

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...it was a plane adrift beneath the moon moving serenely thru beams like an angel of the night .....fair as a song ........aloof from mortal dreams

Aaahh. some people have posted on the thread. I thought you had all gone home.....

You know, I sometimes think that people get some kind of "drift" onto a subject and then they resort to a preconceived idea which they have and that means that something that somebody else says means absolutely nothing at all. Such is the last post from fleet16B.

Personally, I do not care about the "how" of the Earhart and Noonan return to New Britain, what continually tells me that I am on the right track is the documentary evidence we have and the visual reports from the persons who saw the all-metal, corroded, unpainted wreckage in the Jungle in April 1945 which appeared to them to have been there for several years. The U.S. Army said they did not own it, indeed, who would be foolish enough to send an R-1340 S3H1 powered aircraft anywhere near Rabaul with its' myriad number of Japanese fighter aircraft? My research shows no other R-1340 S3H1 powered aircraft in New Guinea before or during WWII. So, whose aircraft is it ?

Fleet, I am asking you to read the website and absorb the evidence that we have and then throw questions at it, that's the way to go about querying what I say.

Yes, indeed, we all at some stage have had moments of sheer panic but then what happens ? Rationality sets in and we think out the problem and sort the alternatives. Do you think that Earhart was less of a human being or of a lesser intelligence enough so that she could not work the problem ? She had shown previous rays of intelligence and did have a back-up plan if she could not find Howland. Furthermore, what about Fred ? Fred was a seasoned aviator, do you honestly think he would let her panic (if that was the actuality) and override the situation ?

Let's see if we can try again. Remember, throw out preconceived ideas that all in sundry have been told for the past 73 years and start again. If we hang onto preconceived ideas we will not get anywhere.

In regard to an underwater search, that was done by Ted Waitt last year. Google the "Waitt Discovery Foundation" for the paper which has been presented. A paper, which does contain mistakes and proposes failures, for which there is no evidence.

David Billings

Well Dave
I have read your website and while it is all very interesting, it's seems very sketchy ay most.
One gets the impression that you truly want to believe this theory and try hard to convince people that it is true. With all due respect , you seem to be grasping and or wishfully thinking.
You also seem a little hostile to anyone that questions your theory.
You too must be open minded to the common opinion as well as your theories.
As an experienced pilot, I find it very hard to believe that Earhart, with her level of experience, would risk the fuel consumption it takes to climb to 12000 ft. Especially if the fuel they needed to reach an island was so close to what they had left. With the remaining fuel they had , it would take some very very accurate navigating to get to an alternate. This we know was not happening as the could not find Howland.
I am not holding onto preconceived ideas anymore that you are constantly rejecting them. I am simply being realistic and logical.
Anything is possible. There is always the possibility that they came down on an uncharted atoll or island that no longer exists but the chances are very slim.
With no solid evidence to the contrary, one must assume that considering the area , the a/c went into the water
When I spoke of her pannicky voice . I refer to observations from the naval personnel that heard her voice in the last transmissions and at a time when there would have been no fuel left for your alternate theory
Question, do you have any evidence of this alternate plan or any other?
Or just the assumption that she would have had one and did not share it with anyone but Noonan. Surely he husband and or Paul Mantz would have been privy to an alternate plan if the island was missed.
I am no more an expert on the subject that you are but obviously you have done some research. Do you have evidence (factual) about the alternate plan?
Overall I encourage you to keep trying as anything is possible but since you can't seem to drum up much support, you need stronger evidence to back your theory. What you have is obviously not enough to garner the interest you need to get serious backing.
Good luck with your searching.
Fleet16b

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...it was a plane adrift beneath the moon moving serenely thru beams like an angel of the night .....fair as a song ........aloof from mortal dreams