More unusual Waco historical documents

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:23 pm

the actual "birth" of the weaver aircraft company was in lorain ohio, 1 hour west of Cleveland.

wacoykc · **Posted:** Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:10 am

Van Sicklen was never a test pilot for Waco! He was always a finance guy. Waco's test pilots were Lund, Livingston, Thornberry, and Campbell. In the early years prior to 1928 it was Weaver, Brukner, Junkin, Goembel.

barnbstormer · **Posted:** Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:02 am

Hi Andy;
Either you misread my post, or I was unclear. It was R.W. "Shorty"Schroeder, who I was "assuming" MIGHT have been a test pilot for Waco. I see he is NOT on your list.
Schroeder was touting the van Scklen financing of "our company" to Brukner. Given that Shorty Schroeder was a multiple time aviation record holder , and cheif test pilot for USAS at McCook, in Dayton, for years prior to that, I was making an "assumption" his role at Waco would have been test pilot. (I know...Never "assume"...) Nice to know that you have the names of all the test pilots to clarify this..

As to being "born" in Lorain, Ohio, I have numerous original documents of at least three different dates of starting in Lorain. From Securities/recognition, to a great "First stockholders meeting" report signed by Weaver, Junkin, Brukner & Deuther,
to annual financial reports from 1921-23, with 1920 dates signed by Junkin with date of incorporation.

*But there is Also a long, two-page letter Written by Brukner, on Weaver Aircraft Company, Lorain, Ohio, letterhead. about 5 months earlier than those dates. Possibly one of the oldest Weaver, Advance, Waco documents.

Then it COULD be said that the Waco Company was "born", as a concept, in 1915, When Brukner and Clayton made written (Jan 8,1915- June 1917) plans to form an aircraft company and explored in great detail, what they would need to know, the market, which types of planes to sell, specific designs, and how to go about reaching that goal, (which they DID) and the daily experiences and training that went toward that. There are 89 full pages of handwritten history of their planning of their future aircraft company, written by Junkin, to Brukner.

barnbstormer · **Posted:** Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:49 am

I tried to post this image on the previous post, but Photoshop was "acting up" at that time.
The Company archives also include a unique look at the formal formation of the three companies, (Weaver, Advance, and Waco)in files that have initial drafts of incorporation contracts on multi-page legal size papers, but ALSO include subsequent drafts, with hand written changes on the pages, followed by the final versions of the incorporation documents. Interestingly, there is a also a whole SLEW of different Original contract versions for the controversial Troy Trailer and Wagon Works business and property. Very detailed and thorough information about this somewhat "cloudy" part of Waco history.
For a long time..., I had always thought that Brukner was ALWAYS the President of the various Companes, But Weaver was the first (well, it WAS the WEAVER Aircraft Company...)and, more surprisingly, Junkin was President in 1923.
Dates, finances, assets parties involved, tooling, options, etc
This is a Known document, but there is nothing like having the Original in a frame on the wall

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:58 pm

pm sent

wacoykc · **Posted:** Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:58 pm

That is all great stuff Joe! The very early years of Waco have lots of holes in the facts. From 1919-1924 when they moved to Troy, the history is only told through the Fred Kobernuss book and even that doesn't necessarily follow in order. You have to read it and then piece together what happened. That was why I felt the real Waco story needs to be written. I have been working on this along with John Eney the last five years. The airplane part is easy since I have all the original Sales records and the comprehensive list of ever Waco built. With well over 10,000 Waco photos, supplying accurate and detailed photos of each model is no issue either. The real issue is being accurate on the historical information written. You obviously have a lot of information we could use to insure what we write will be the real history. What years do your files cover exactly?

barnbstormer · **Posted:** Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:39 am

Hi Andy;
From all I have been able to understand, so far, your own research and reference mateials and records should make for a vastly improved understanding and recording of the fantastic Waco ( and Weaver and Advance) history, and is needed, for current and future generations. The Kobernuss book, while providing lots of scattered snapshots into some of the more precise details and anecdotes, had a very confusing edit and organization, and NO INDEX!. I hope yours will have an Index. One thing that the K. book made amusingly clear, is that even Clayton Brukner, the long time President, who was THERE at the TIME most of these historical events and decisions were made, was, HIMSELF, very confused about remembering times and places and specific details and decisions, at the time of Kobernuss' interviews.

The archival files I still have, are often contradictory as to dates. This is sometimes due to major historical decisions and strategies being made, but then being follwed through, via a number of later steps and acts, with different dates, times, places, people. Yes, "putting them together," enough to follow a time line, is challenging. I would say, I enjoy the documents that record specific events and plans and decisions to move the company forward, with big decisions, the most. The 89 pages of the early planning letters, are a first person, Fly-On-The-Wall, time machine, discussing Brukner and Junkin's plans for an aircraft manufacturing company. They discuss the real STRUGGLES such as resorting to sleeping on the ground outside, for two months, and eating ONLY a 5 cent can of soup, each day, in order to continue paying for aviation schooling, along with a fair number of other Pioneers, who would become famous, and giving his own opinions of them, their aviation ideas, even their deaths, with his full eywitness accounts and examinations and explanations, as he knew and LIVED a daily life with them. The many stories of planes he THEN designed, modified, cobbled together, and WHY and HOW and WHEN and Who etc. are so wonderfully detailed,in these first person, accounts.

The company files go through other first person correspondence with other aviation company heads, and their epic, yet visionary, struggles to survive the Great Depression, and get involved in dealerships, air racing, military etc, The first person accounts and correpondence from tragedies, to triumphs, in detail, sometimes with a healthy dose of humor, is what makes aero history so fascinating. To have it all revealed, by those who made the decisions, at the Time they were made (rather than the very faulty memories, Kobernuss recorded decades later) are treasures.

The files I have cover from Jan.8. 1915 up though WWII (an exciting period, of decisions and challenges, of course) and past the end of the Waco company, in the 1960s. WWII period is paricularly interesting, as it presents the the confrontations of rugged individuals of great vision and daring, with the restraints and frustrations of dealing with, often exasperating, military and government requirements and paper pushers.

A story made all the MORE tragic, when realizing that Junkin and Weaver, never lived to see what WACO would become. But a story of Triumph, when going through the evolution of two boys reaching for the skies, and getting there.

barnbstormer · **Posted:** Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:04 pm

I have spent many enjoyable hours, sorting through various topics, covered in this Original 1925-1926 Two year, Advance Aircraft Co Weekly Paybook.
Key to each line:

Each worker is numbered, then named,
-next column of numbers is the number of hours, each employee worked that week (Pages are all dated at top of page)
-next column of numbers is the rate of pay per hour, for that employee, in cents per hour
-Next column is the total pay, they were paid That week.

Some quick notes might be:
-Worker #25 worked 74 1/2 hours that week!
-Worker # 26 received a 2 1/2 cent per hour Raise in pay, that week
-Workers (Just in this small grouping.. earned between 30 cents and 75 cents per hour.
-6 workers (Just in This grouping) worked more than 60 hour per week.
Even with all those hours, they earned between $9 and $36.90 for the week.
It is very interesting to watch the payroll and emplyees numbers grow, during that two-year period. It is also of great interest to anyone who had a relative who worked there. The book is some 115 pages long, covering each week in detail for each employee and name.
*this is just one portion, of one page..

It includes lots of notes in the pages and columns, as to new replacements, and what looks to be firings or resigned, or deleted employees, whose name are crossed-out.

barnbstormer · **Posted:** Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:17 am

This is a bit "tongue-in-cheek," but another answer to your question of "What period do these archives cover?"... might go back to Pre-Wright Brothers, Pre-Turn of the Century Era. :wink:

Here is photo of Clayton Brukner at approx age of ONE, (he is seated on the right, here) circa 1897-1898! The files also have numerous original old photos of him at age 3, 5, 16 (*When he was bitten by the aircraft bug!) and through his life, along with the various homes he was born and lived in, and the Farms and airfields he lived on, throughout his life.

barnbstormer · **Posted:** Sun May 11, 2014 12:13 pm

Was re-reading another great signed, historical aviation document from the Waco files/archives, this morning.
E.G. McCauley wrote a long, single spaced, two-page typed letter, on his Dayton OH letterhead, to Waco President, Brukner in early 1934.

*In the things that might have been" category, McCauley offers to bring his new patents on the first steel propeller to meet govt requirements, to a meeting with Brukner, offering Waco the chance for manufacturing this "accessory to the airplane business," and subsequent profits for the Waco company. Brukner's copy of his response, is ALSO attached, where he says he regrets not being able to pursue the matter due to the press of other matters, at the time being, and has confidence that McCauley will be able to push his development to a production status before very long.

* A few years later, McCauley founded the famous McCauley Propeller Company, in 1938,which would become, and still remains, today,the largest propeller manufacturing company in the World!
Great piece of history..

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