Warbird Information Exchange

Does anyone know why the Winnie Mae was moved from the downtown museum to the Hazy center? I've always thought this plane should be displayed in the downtown museum in the Milestones of Flight gallery. For a long time it had it's own room in the NASM but it was removed when the Hazy center was built. There's actually a good video on Youtube of her dis-assembly, move and reassembly...back to the NASM into her own gallery. She looks good. A very significant aircraft...

http://youtu.be/QwXvGFE6HkM

Some good pictures of the move on the NASM web page for the plane:

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/a ... 9360030000

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

Two things:

First, there already is an arguably more historic Vega in the area immediately behind the Milestones gallery, this being the Vega that Amelia Earhart used for the first female piloted flight across the Atlantic. The Lockheed Sirius "Tingmissartoq" is also nearby. So, how many Lockheeds of essentially similar design should be in that immediate area?

Second, the Wiley Post Vega ("Winnie Mae") was originally on display at the NASM opening in 1976 in an aeronautical development gallery that also included the XP-59 jet and a prototype Hawker-Siddeley Harrier (Kestrel). That gallery was eventually closed and the Winnie Mae moved into temporary storage and then to Udvar Hazy for the opening there in 2003. So the Vega has been previously on display at the main NASM facility, but rotated as the galleries have changed. It has now been rotated back to be part of the Time and Navigation Gallery.

The Vega has never had a gallery to itself. This aircraft is historic in a variety of ways and so can be used to support various exhibits, thus its use in galleries dedicated to aeronautical development, and navigation. However, I would argue that its importance does not rise to the level of being a singular milestone. NASM has a variety of aircraft that could be in the Milestone Gallery but are not because of lack of room (the Langley Model 5, any of a several early helicopters, the XC-35 Electra [yet another Lockheed], among others). I think the current display of the Wiley Post Vega is appropriate to its historical importance.

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Kevin McCartney

Interesting points...but I disagree with just about all of them. The first around the world solo flight. That achievement alone is worthy of a "Milestone of Flight" designation. Just my opinion...

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

I know that I'm an Oklahoman, and I'm totally biased. But in terms of aircraft that are singularly significant to the history of manned flight, the Winnie Mae stacks right up there with anything you can name. First solo around the world flight. Altitude records. Proof that using the jet stream at altitude was feasible for efficient passenger flight. Testing of oxygen systems, helmets and suits that were essentially the forerunners of spacesuits- 25 years before NASA started using them.

Oh, and an aircraft owned and operated by one of the most famous fliers of that era- right up there with Charles Lindbergh, Frank Hawks, Jimmy Doolittle, and, yes, Amelia Earhart. If you were interested in flight, or read any of the major aviation magazines of that era, or paid any attention to what was going on in the world around you at that time, all of these folks were rock stars. They got ticker tape parades down the Canyon of Heroes. Beyond that, this airplane gave Will Rogers a ride to his hometown of Claremore, OK, and initiated a friendship that would ultimately lead to the death of one of the biggest box office draws of the 1930's and one of the best-known and most widely read columnists of the early 20th century. That story was the headline of almost every major paper in the country, and led many in major cities around the world.

Earhart's Vega is significant in its own way, and as a marketing tool for NASM is priceless. But arguing that both shouldn't be on an equal plane or shouldn't be on display at NASM at the same time because they are both Lockheed products is like saying that Bock's Car and the Memphis Belle shouldn't share floor space in Dayton because they are both Boeing products.

There are very few surviving aircraft of the 1920's and 1930's that are as significant, connected to major events in our nation's history, that participated in foundational milestones of manned flight or that are in as unquestionably original condition as the Winnie Mae. Wiley died, and the airplane came straight to the Smithsonian. No one else ever flew it after Wiley died. I totally agree with rotating exhibits, and that once on the floor doesn't guarantee a spot in perpetuity. But the Winnie Mae far outclasses a lot of the other exhibits at the Smithsonian, and that's saying something.

And if for some reason the Smithsonian gets tired of it, I've got a nice spot for it here at home where it spent most of its operational career- Oklahoma!

kevin

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FOUND the elusive DT-built B-24! Woo-hoo!!!

Well said tulsaboy. If it were up to me, the Winnie Mae would hang across from the X-1 in place of the Bell XP-59A Airacomet. As important as the XP-59 is, I would not have put it in the same category as the X-1 and The Spirit of St. Louis...

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

if I last remember, I saw her at the henry ford museum in Michigan in the early 70's on a school field trip. when was she moved & why??

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

The Ford museum has its own Vega, are you sure it wasn't that one?

I agree Winnie is as significant as Earhart's Vega but it is a case of embarassment of riches. However, to answer the original question, one of the reasons Winnie is (was?) at U-H is because a special new exhibit is being prepared to showcase it at the Mall facility. Indeed, the NASM's web site says Winnie is already back there, though I can't personally verify that's true.

August

The Winnie Mae is on display in the Time and Navigation at the NASM DC Mall Museum. It is the only full size aircraft in that exhibit although there are many smaller items.

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Kevin McCartney

I have the old pics from the ford museum. she must have been moved to Smithsonian, or the 1 their was made up to resemble her. I shot it w/ an old Kodak instamatic. remember those?? I was shocked because I took 2 pics that were practically perfect when fit together at the fuselage.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Frankly, I think Udvar-Hazy is the more prestigious place for the serious aviation enthusiast, IMHO. The downtown museum has developed into a much more kid-friendly and educational venue than it was when it first opened. Udvar-Hazy is much more "here are the planes" rather than various interpretive (and often politically correct) galleries.

Also, the downtown museum is about to undergo its first serious renovation since it opened nearly 40 (gasp!) years ago. The main entrance gallery is being completely redone, so it's quite possible we're going to see a number of changes when that work is done.

Actually, the Milestones gallery is one of the last to be renovated. I think all other galleries except the WWII gallery have been either renovation or rotated out to be replaced by something new. The Milestones gallery itself has not been static. Of the original five suspended aircraft, the Langley Model 5 and Wright Flyer have gone elsewhere and the SpaceShipOne and P-59 have been hung up. The floor space has been drastically changed a number of times.

The WWII gallery is also due for revision soon, though I know none of the particulars.

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Kevin McCartney

I dare say that the reason that Amelia's Vega is downtown has more to do with her being a woman than its condition or historical value of the aircraft.

Rightly or wrongly, the NASM has to play politics.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.

"Woman" isn't a political party. If it were, I'd vote for it.

Other good reasons for the red Vega to be downtown: (1) one of two fairly stock wood Vegas extant, a revolutionary and influential design; (2) associated with a celebrity, thus a crowd draw irrespective of Earhart's gender. But it was tougher for Earhart, as a woman, to do what she did, and that is worth remembering. The Smithsonian also displayes Janet Guthrie's racing gear, also a good thing.

http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/shake-a ... eer-030714.

August

I didn't say it was.
But promoting a female pilot does get into gender equality politics.
I'd wager, historically...in terms of famous flights, the Winnie Mae is a more historic airframe than AE's Vega.
I don't think the fact that it's "fairly stock" played into the NASM's decision. The downtown location is more about visitor numbers and gift shop sales than showing the public stock aircraft. If it were, the F-104 would be in USAF colors rather than NASA markings.
The Mall location has to do with "firsts" and record breakers which by their nature are customs or far from stock..thus the WM has more in common with The Wright Flyer, The Spirit of St Louis, Voyager and Space Ship One than a stock Vega does.
Putting it simply, Post's Vega fits into the theme of the NASM Mall location better than AE's ship.

As you said, AE is now a celebrity, better known than Wiley Post, even though he was the better /more accomplished aviator.
Sadly, she cemented her legacy to the non-aviation public by getting herself killed, thus becoming the James Dean of the aviation world. Indeed, the TIGHAR folks have earned a good living off of her for years.
Post meanwhile, had the bad luck to take a national icon with him when he died.
Historians have speculated that 's one reason why he isn't better remembered or at least commemorated, today.

I'm not saying a display on women's accomplishments is bad...and it's nice that they display Janet Guthrie's racing gear.
But I'd raise a question if for example, they removed A.J. Foyt's gear to make room for hers. (For the younger crowd here, it would be like removing Dale Earnhardt's gear for Danica Patrick's).
At that point, the display turns from "winning racing drivers" to "women's accomplishments in motor sports".

Please don't try to paint me as a misogynist or being anti-female aviators.
On my den wall are four framed NASM prints with fabric samples of famous aircraft...the NC-4, a DWC "Chicago", Vin Fiz and AE's Vega, the very aircraft we're discussing. I bought it over a similar pint simply because AE is more famous than most other aviators...and would mean more to non-aviation visitors to my den/mini museum.
The NASM made the same choice.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.

i'm not against women aviators as to aviation history. I have 2 ae autographs on flight covers, 1 w/ Gladys odonnell too, w/ ruth elder, & 1 pancho barnes. the women's aviation museum / hall of fame is located at burke lakefront airport in Cleveland ohio. earhart is legend since she just disappeared....... poof!!!...... gone. now she is practically canonized, even though she has been rated a sub par pilot by many WITH THE KNOWLEDGE TO DO SO. every one loves a good mystery, but seeing tighar's ric Gillespie w/ his recent interview on "ghost planes" regarding Malaysia's flight 370 as of recent is like
interviewing weird al yankovic on the construction of nuclear reactors. what a flagrant, disgusting form of grandstanding. Gillespie is way out of his league. flight 370's vanishing w/ out a trace is not aviation history, it is a methodical / scientific search for a disaster that affects thousands.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!