Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:38 pm
Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:44 pm
gary217 wrote:
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I don't know what I've done wrong so I don't like being put in the same category with Gillespie. I know that I have never asked for contributions and that it has cost me my own money to pursue my research. It's all out there for free to everybody, almost 2,000 posts on TIGHAR (until I realized the futility of further posting there) and on my website, you can all look there for free.
https://sites.google.com/site/fredienoonan/
gl
Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:53 pm
Viper Strike wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:
I'm not accusing of 'wrongs', or even 'mistakes', but since the sordid topic of coin and OPM was raised, Gary, are you not still associated with Stratus? Does Stratus not seek OPM to support a search based on your theory of navigation? Does that prospect not require the signing of a non-disclosure agreement along with payment? As such, isn't Stratus thereby in effect selling her idea?
The only difference I see in TIGHAR and Stratus on that is that TIGHAR is in the full public eye with her ideas - Stratus does her selling behind a closed door.
This is what I meant by glass walls in this house...
Google search produced several entries;
http://www.stratusproject.com/
It doesn't appear that Stratus is operating behind closed doors to raise funding,...they offer items as Tighar and put boots on the ground in promoting tours and events. I am unsure if their charity status has been granted, it looks like anyone can contribute if they desire.
I believe the biggest complaint many have, regarding Tighar's MO, is lack of peer review, proclamations that artifacts have connections with Earhart though unproven, banning of those who submit evidence that contridicts the hypothisis.Jeffrey Neville wrote:Stratus, however, is beginning to look like a cloaked TIGHAR as I think about it. Hmmm... Wonder how much they've raised?
I disagree, being relatively new,they haven't had the exposure that Tighar has, and appear transparent.
Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:55 pm
Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:57 pm
Viper Strike wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:Not trying to pick on Stratus, Viper, but I don't understand Gary's constant pleadings against TIGHAR but steadfast silence about Stratus, who will, yes -
Sell you a T shirt or hat, etc. - but all I can get for that is a fuzzy feeling of supporting something that clearly IS planned behind closed doors, and which I have no hope of knowing about short of buying in at 'big dog' rates. Even then, where does Stratus hold out even a shot for peer review?
I like Gary fine, and he has some legit gripes - but Stratus is not a Sterling example of openness and is dependent on OPM just like TIGHAR. Whether they have non-profit status yet I don't know, but they were attempting to get it.
Fair's fair and if Gary's going to gripe ad nauseam about TIGHAR then the least he can do as far as I am concerned is speak a bit about his affiliation with an outfit that seems to have many of the same features - selling an idea, namely. At least TIGHAR's made a spectacle of that. We simply don't know enough about Stratus yet to know how different they may be - I believe at least partly because of the inner proprietary nature of it. Maybe they should not be entitled to non-profit status for similar reasons of that concern being raised about TIGHAR.
I'm not accusing Stratus of any wrong, merely pointing out a lack of transparency. It would be good if Gary or Cobb himself might address some of this. One thing I've learned from experience with TIGHAR is to be more careful as a consumer - and that caution should not be limited to TIGHAR.
I believe they have stated their mission goal and have been as transparent as possible, consider,they don't have what one would liken to a protected claim, on a perticular piece of earth, as does Tighar. Opening their site to peer review at this time ( if they have a solid theory on the Electra's whereabouts) would be akin to those who would shout GOLD!!!, what would be the result? As far as the non-profit status, I believe most people's objection to it being granted to anyone , is the seemingly profit to a few members. I don't believe that is how Stratus intends to operate, rather it is purported that the CEO is pulling money out of his own pocket , as does David Billings, ....who in my opinion has been very transparent.
Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:58 pm
gary217 wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:Not trying to pick on Stratus, Viper, but I don't understand Gary's constant pleadings against TIGHAR but steadfast silence about Stratus, who will, yes -
Sell you a T shirt or hat, etc. - but all I can get for that is a fuzzy feeling of supporting something that clearly IS planned behind closed doors, and which I have no hope of knowing about short of buying in at 'big dog' rates. Even then, where does Stratus hold out even a shot for peer review?
I like Gary fine, and he has some legit gripes - but Stratus is not a Sterling example of openness and is dependent on OPM just like TIGHAR. Whether they have non-profit status yet I don't know, but they were attempting to get it.
Fair's fair and if Gary's going to gripe ad nauseam about TIGHAR then the least he can do as far as I am concerned is speak a bit about his affiliation with an outfit that seems to have many of the same features - selling an idea, namely. At least TIGHAR's made a spectacle of that. We simply don't know enough about Stratus yet to know how different they may be - I believe at least partly because of the inner proprietary nature of it. Maybe they should not be entitled to non-profit status for similar reasons of that concern being raised about TIGHAR.
I'm not accusing Stratus of any wrong, merely pointing out a lack of transparency. It would be good if Gary or Cobb himself might address some of this. One thing I've learned from experience with TIGHAR is to be more careful as a consumer - and that caution should not be limited to TIGHAR.
========================================================================================
If you go to the Stratus Project website you will find several photos of me:
http://www.stratusproject.com/wp-content/gallery/gary/9H0A6447.jpg
http://www.stratusproject.com/wp-content/gallery/gary/9H0A6317.jpg
http://www.stratusproject.com/gary-lapook/
You will see me wearing a black polo shirt and a black windbreaker each with the Stratus Project logo. That is all I have to show for my association with Stratus, no $239,000 like Ric, just two items of clothing. Colin offered to reimburse me for my airfare to Ireland to meet with him in February 2013, which seemed reasonable since I believed, then, that he had raised money from others to support Stratus. I then found out that all the money for the project had come out of Colin't own pocket so I didn't accept the reimbursement so I am out one round trip airfare from Los Angeles to Ireland, I count this as my contribution to Stratus.
As to transparency about Status' theory, just look at those almost 2,000 posts of mine on TIGHAR. (1,624 posts on the new TIGHAR forum in 2011 and 2012 and several hundred on the old forum in 2002 and 2003.) I have been saying the same thing since 2002, they crashed into the sea north of Howland under the cloudy area reported by Itasca. Let me say it again, they crashed into the sea north of Howland under the cloudy area reported by Itasca. is that clear enough? Oh, and look at my website too, https://sites.google.com/site/fredienoonan/
As to Stratus asking for confidentiality, the only thing we are keeping secret is the exact spot on that big ocean that I think is the best place to start the search. You're right, we don't want others to be convinced by my analysis and send their ship to that spot. Can you blame us? Stratus is trying to raise money to send its own research ship to start a search there (I don't know how successful this effort will be) but I would certainly like the aircraft to be found (by somebody) and would really like it to be based on my analysis.
So I really don't see any valid comparison with TIGHAR.
gl
Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:00 pm
Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:01 pm
gary217 wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:Not trying to pick on Stratus, Viper, but I don't understand Gary's constant pleadings against TIGHAR but steadfast silence about Stratus, who will, yes -
Sell you a T shirt or hat, etc. - but all I can get for that is a fuzzy feeling of supporting something that clearly IS planned behind closed doors, and which I have no hope of knowing about short of buying in at 'big dog' rates. Even then, where does Stratus hold out even a shot for peer review?
I like Gary fine, and he has some legit gripes - but Stratus is not a Sterling example of openness and is dependent on OPM just like TIGHAR. Whether they have non-profit status yet I don't know, but they were attempting to get it.
Fair's fair and if Gary's going to gripe ad nauseam about TIGHAR then the least he can do as far as I am concerned is speak a bit about his affiliation with an outfit that seems to have many of the same features - selling an idea, namely. At least TIGHAR's made a spectacle of that. We simply don't know enough about Stratus yet to know how different they may be - I believe at least partly because of the inner proprietary nature of it. Maybe they should not be entitled to non-profit status for similar reasons of that concern being raised about TIGHAR.
I'm not accusing Stratus of any wrong, merely pointing out a lack of transparency. It would be good if Gary or Cobb himself might address some of this. One thing I've learned from experience with TIGHAR is to be more careful as a consumer - and that caution should not be limited to TIGHAR.
========================================================================================
Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:02 pm
gary217 wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:You must be a follower, Viper.
I'd like for Gary to engage on it, actually. I think that's only fair. Perhaps we need a new string, too.
You may have great faith in Cobb and LaPook, but nothing I've seen out of them suggests any more than a warmed-over asking the public to buy into an idea of chasing Gary's idea of 'what Noonan must have done' to some blind hole in the Pacific. That's not terribly different than much of what Gary gripes about at TIGHAR.
Gary's guiding idea for Stratus ought to be subject to peer review if they expect serious buy-in, too.
Gary loves to play the broken record of how screwed up Gillespie is, but we have pages of the same stuff and that story continues to umfold in the full view of the public. How about Gary's own interests, in fairness? All we hear about is the 'FredieNoonan' site, up for years - but no facility there for debate or peer review either.
How has LaPook refined his ideas to the point that OPM ought to chase them, who will be compensated and how, if successful, and what about interim operational costs, including any salaries, who pays for a failure, are they really still seeking nonprofit status or not, why is that warranted if so, etc.?
Gary's made himself something of a consumer advocate where TIGHAR is concerned, so he ought not need you to defend him where his own interests are concerned. In fact, if Stratus is on the up and up, he ought to welcome the chance to answer.
Of course if Stratus has become a private entity that does not seek public OPM, then it's none of our business.
Anybody with any sense at all should hold each of these guys accountable after what's been learned in this industry.
====================================================
Jeff, look at my prior post and watch the linked video of my presentation of my analysis to a bunch of WW2 aviators..
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=53085&p=548397&hilit=wings+over+wendy#p548397
http://vimeo.com/channels/549186
As I said, I count the positive evaluation of my theory in my presentation by the World War Two flight navigators who had used the exact same techniques, tables, and equipment as Noonan had been using as "peer review." Over on TIGHAR Ric touted his "Celestial Choir" as qualified flight navigators to dispute my analysis there and, when I challenged them to do so, all I got was silence. You criticize my website for lacking a forum but I know nothing about setting up a website, that is a free website from Google, and I don't know if there is even a facility for setting up a forum on a Google free website.
Do you have any other qualified flight navigators to do such a review? If so then start a new topic here and let's go at it.
gl
Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:04 pm
gary217 wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:You must be a follower, Viper.
I'd like for Gary to engage on it, actually. I think that's only fair. Perhaps we need a new string, too.
You may have great faith in Cobb and LaPook, but nothing I've seen out of them suggests any more than a warmed-over asking the public to buy into an idea of chasing Gary's idea of 'what Noonan must have done' to some blind hole in the Pacific. That's not terribly different than much of what Gary gripes about at TIGHAR.
Gary's guiding idea for Stratus ought to be subject to peer review if they expect serious buy-in, too.
Gary loves to play the broken record of how screwed up Gillespie is, but we have pages of the same stuff and that story continues to umfold in the full view of the public. How about Gary's own interests, in fairness? All we hear about is the 'FredieNoonan' site, up for years - but no facility there for debate or peer review either.
How has LaPook refined his ideas to the point that OPM ought to chase them, who will be compensated and how, if successful, and what about interim operational costs, including any salaries, who pays for a failure, are they really still seeking nonprofit status or not, why is that warranted if so, etc.?
Gary's made himself something of a consumer advocate where TIGHAR is concerned, so he ought not need you to defend him where his own interests are concerned. In fact, if Stratus is on the up and up, he ought to welcome the chance to answer.
Of course if Stratus has become a private entity that does not seek public OPM, then it's none of our business.
Anybody with any sense at all should hold each of these guys accountable after what's been learned in this industry.
====================================================
Jeff, look at my prior post and watch the linked video of my presentation of my analysis to a bunch of WW2 aviators..
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=53085&p=548397&hilit=wings+over+wendy#p548397
http://vimeo.com/channels/549186
As I said, I count the positive evaluation of my theory in my presentation by the World War Two flight navigators who had used the exact same techniques, tables, and equipment as Noonan had been using as "peer review." Over on TIGHAR Ric touted his "Celestial Choir" as qualified flight navigators to dispute my analysis there and, when I challenged them to do so, all I got was silence. You criticize my website for lacking a forum but I know nothing about setting up a website, that is a free website from Google, and I don't know if there is even a facility for setting up a forum on a Google free website.
Do you have any other qualified flight navigators to do such a review? If so then start a new topic here and let's go at it.
gl
Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:05 pm
Viper Strike wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:You must be a follower, Viper.
I am independent in my views; you may ask of Stratus if I have any affiliation with them. I have followed Tighar, David Billings, Stratus, Mr Spink, Mr Long and have spent numerous study hours on the Saipan theorists ideas. I haven't committed to any, as none of them have presented to me an undeniable scenario. As far as the MO of each, actions speak louder than words, their records will have to stand for themselves. You mentioned a lack of a forum for peer review , upon looking, Stratus has a facebook link , where you may post at will, in effect a blog, hopefully; their Mo isn't similar to that of others who would remove content unfavorable to their hypothesis, trolling is one thing, open peer debate is another, I am satisfied with Gary's response , confidentiality would be a priority in his case, as his party doesn't have a secured claim on a particular territory.
Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:07 pm
Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:08 pm
gary217 wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:Not trying to pick on Stratus, Viper, but I don't understand Gary's constant pleadings against TIGHAR but steadfast silence about Stratus, who will, yes -
Sell you a T shirt or hat, etc. - but all I can get for that is a fuzzy feeling of supporting something that clearly IS planned behind closed doors, and which I have no hope of knowing about short of buying in at 'big dog' rates. Even then, where does Stratus hold out even a shot for peer review?
I like Gary fine, and he has some legit gripes - but Stratus is not a Sterling example of openness and is dependent on OPM just like TIGHAR. Whether they have non-profit status yet I don't know, but they were attempting to get it.
Fair's fair and if Gary's going to gripe ad nauseam about TIGHAR then the least he can do as far as I am concerned is speak a bit about his affiliation with an outfit that seems to have many of the same features - selling an idea, namely. At least TIGHAR's made a spectacle of that. We simply don't know enough about Stratus yet to know how different they may be - I believe at least partly because of the inner proprietary nature of it. Maybe they should not be entitled to non-profit status for similar reasons of that concern being raised about TIGHAR.
I'm not accusing Stratus of any wrong, merely pointing out a lack of transparency. It would be good if Gary or Cobb himself might address some of this. One thing I've learned from experience with TIGHAR is to be more careful as a consumer - and that caution should not be limited to TIGHAR.
========================================================================================
If you go to the Stratus Project website you will find several photos of me:
http://www.stratusproject.com/wp-content/gallery/gary/9H0A6447.jpg
http://www.stratusproject.com/wp-content/gallery/gary/9H0A6317.jpg
http://www.stratusproject.com/gary-lapook/
You will see me wearing a black polo shirt and a black windbreaker each with the Stratus Project logo. That is all I have to show for my association with Stratus, no $239,000 like Ric, just two items of clothing. Colin offered to reimburse me for my airfare to Ireland to meet with him in February 2013, which seemed reasonable since I believed, then, that he had raised money from others to support Stratus. I then found out that all the money for the project had come out of Colin't own pocket so I didn't accept the reimbursement so I am out one round trip airfare from Los Angeles to Ireland, I count this as my contribution to Stratus.
As to transparency about Status' theory, just look at those almost 2,000 posts of mine on TIGHAR. (1,624 posts on the new TIGHAR forum in 2011 and 2012 and several hundred on the old forum in 2002 and 2003.) I have been saying the same thing since 2002, they crashed into the sea north of Howland under the cloudy area reported by Itasca. Let me say it again, they crashed into the sea north of Howland under the cloudy area reported by Itasca. is that clear enough? Oh, and look at my website too, https://sites.google.com/site/fredienoonan/
As to Stratus asking for confidentiality, the only thing we are keeping secret is the exact spot on that big ocean that I think is the best place to start the search. You're right, we don't want others to be convinced by my analysis and send their ship to that spot. Can you blame us? Stratus is trying to raise money to send its own research ship to start a search there (I don't know how successful this effort will be) but I would certainly like the aircraft to be found (by somebody) and would really like it to be based on my analysis.
So I really don't see any valid comparison with TIGHAR.
gl
Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:11 pm
gary217 wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:
Nice parsing, Counselor - you picked one point out of the whole and ignored the main thrust -
Stratus.
Which is clearly versed in web stuff, but devoid of a meaningful forum.
And you've not touched the questions about Stratus that I've raised. Until you do, Stratus kind of looks like TIGHAR in an overcoat.
Burden's on you if you want credibility.
======================================
Jeff, somehow I am missing your point, I thought I had responded to your questions. Please try again.
gl
Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:14 pm
Viper Strike wrote::-P Jeff,
I don't think Gary is going to tell you exactly where Stratus is preparing to search, North of Howland is probably as good as you will get. I don't believe he will come right out and say;
There's all this dough, see... it's under the big W I tell ya...
or something to that effect, consider the reason, history would repeat itself , cite, There's GOLD in them there hills !!,..yup, here and there, but ,I don't believe, ask as you may that, the savvy old miner (navigator) is going to show you exactly where he believes the mother lode is located.