Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:46 pm
You will see me wearing a black polo shirt and a black windbreaker each with the Stratus Project logo. That is all I have to show for my association with Stratus, no $239,000 like Ric, just two items of clothing. Colin offered to reimburse me for my airfare to Ireland to meet with him in February 2013, which seemed reasonable since I believed, then, that he had raised money from others to support Stratus. I then found out that all the money for the project had come out of Colin't own pocket so I didn't accept the reimbursement so I am out one round trip airfare from Los Angeles to Ireland, I count this as my contribution to Stratus.
As to transparency about Status' theory, just look at those almost 2,000 posts of mine on TIGHAR. (1,624 posts on the new TIGHAR forum in 2011 and 2012 and several hundred on the old forum in 2002 and 2003.) I have been saying the same thing since 2002, they crashed into the sea north of Howland under the cloudy area reported by Itasca. Let me say it again, they crashed into the sea north of Howland under the cloudy area reported by Itasca. is that clear enough? Oh, and look at my website too, https://sites.google.com/site/fredienoonan/
As to Stratus asking for confidentiality, the only thing we are keeping secret is the exact spot on that big ocean that I think is the best place to start the search. You're right, we don't want others to be convinced by my analysis and send their ship to that spot. Can you blame us? Stratus is trying to raise money to send its own research ship to start a search there (I don't know how successful this effort will be) but I would certainly like the aircraft to be found (by somebody) and would really like it to be based on my analysis.
So I really don't see any valid comparison with TIGHAR.
gl
Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:58 am
Jeffrey Neville wrote:Thanks Viper and I'm not concerned with your affiliation or not, was just commenting on your persistence in speaking up for Stratus. That implies a favorable connection - which is of course fine and would be your judgment, no quarrel there.
I am far from satisfied with Gary's 'answer' as it is NO answer at all to my points. I would be happy for Gary to submit a definitive thesis on his view of how he came to have such confidence in where the flight ended - SANS DETAILS of WHERE he believes the search should center, of course: I respect the proprietary nature of that detail. If Gary would do so, I can provide a suitable review and response soon enough. The point is not limited to navigational ability, of which I realize Gary has plenty - but as to other aspects that attend such as his logic as to 'just what Noonan would have done' given so many variables that are really not knowable.
So much for the technical end. The business end remains at loose ends as far as I am concerned, except for the moment to conclude that I wouldn't send a dime to Stratus because they look like a baseball cap emporium selling yet another open-ended promise. For all I can tell it is nothing more than a carnival ride.
But, if the 'big dogs' get inside, pay up and like it, more power to them. I just hope Stratus can stand the bleating that will follow about "OPM" once, if Stratus truly does become "not for profit", the little guys out here start seeing Cobb as a taker and a mission or two fails and a big donor gets disgruntled, etc. Better they should clarify now and perhaps generate a bit more credibility - if they can.
I do have Gary to thank in large degree for opening my eyes as to being more of a devil's advocate where all these 'enterprises' are concerned. I'm just not so sure that he's noticed how much glass is in the house he moved into, since of course he believes in his own position most fully.
If I had to bet on any one of those you mention, two stand out -
Long would get my vote as the most professional and genteel. If he ever asked the public for a dime I'm not aware of it - I think his efforts were privately funded, and he very thoroughly put his full rationale into clear print and has been a reserved, worthy gentleman through-out.
Billings is hands-down the little guy who put his own wad into his own idea and took the lumps as they came; he's irascible in defending himself against criticism - at times to the point of splitting my sides, and at others... well, even cartoons have a limit... but hey, I didn't drop $80K of my own money on what he did and have to see criticism dropped on my head from a bully pulpit, either.
NEITHER gets a vote from me as "most likely to succeed" however -
I now believe it will be an absolute MIRACLE if Earhart is ever found by ANY of these many efforts. It is far more likely, I believe, given the time that has passed and the enormity and complexity of the environment that she disappeared in, that she's gone from human eyes forever, barring some accidental find one day. My view on this stands whether it was Gardner, the open sea, or near any number of other sea mounts or islands.
That, I now believe, is the core consumer message: caveat emptor - she's well and truly lost in a very difficult area without a single witness or piece of tangible, provable evidence left behind.
As to Stratus, etc. -
I do admire Gary for his abilities as a navigator. I do not believe Gary can channel Noonan well enough (at all, really) to pinpoint a flight terminus any better than, for example, Long did. One thing that is bothersome is that Fred himself was lost that day, too...
I also deeply admire Long. Gary has flown open oceans and navigated on the fly - but Long had a true career of it. The man trained as a navigator on Boeing 314 Clippers - the next generation behind Noonan, so this gentleman who skippered 747's across the Pacific for a career and flew the girth of the earth in a Navajo - including flying an approach to Howland Island, can nearly touch Noonan's outstretched hand in terms of context of understanding, time and ability. Long was the first to make good use of inertial navigation at the poles, apparently. That's not for the weak-hearted or one who lacks navigational acumen in the largest degree.
I do also admire the spirit in Gary's pursuit - but I am concerned at the high-gloss appeal I see coming from Stratus - whom he is affililiated with (his picture there is in the Titanic's dry dock, home of Stratus), which is yet another intended "not for profit" entity. Not for profit too often shields a device for high salaries and / or big prospects for it's principles if a find is made, etc., while little guys fund. So further to Gary's own sterling principles of holding an entity - like TIGHAR, accountable, I believe Stratus has some things it ought to share if they want public confidence.
I'll close by qualifying that comment about 'little guys' money -
We little folk usually fund the minority amount in these things, by far. It's easy enough for me to criticize, for example, TIGHAR's board when I read that deposition - and perhaps rightly so. But I've also thought a time or two about how those very guys also put the lion's share of funding into that effort, more often than not.
Yep, they got the tax advantages too - argue ad nauseam, pro and con, but as to us little folk - as long as Billings' principle of not letting kiddies bust their piggie banks and not letting helpless old folks get bled, it is more savvy buyer beware. But the buyer ought to be informed - well agreed.
So, Gary has spoken. Will he finish the discussion?
Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:03 am
Jeffrey Neville wrote:You will see me wearing a black polo shirt and a black windbreaker each with the Stratus Project logo. That is all I have to show for my association with Stratus, no $239,000 like Ric, just two items of clothing. Colin offered to reimburse me for my airfare to Ireland to meet with him in February 2013, which seemed reasonable since I believed, then, that he had raised money from others to support Stratus. I then found out that all the money for the project had come out of Colin't own pocket so I didn't accept the reimbursement so I am out one round trip airfare from Los Angeles to Ireland, I count this as my contribution to Stratus.
As to transparency about Status' theory, just look at those almost 2,000 posts of mine on TIGHAR. (1,624 posts on the new TIGHAR forum in 2011 and 2012 and several hundred on the old forum in 2002 and 2003.) I have been saying the same thing since 2002, they crashed into the sea north of Howland under the cloudy area reported by Itasca. Let me say it again, they crashed into the sea north of Howland under the cloudy area reported by Itasca. is that clear enough? Oh, and look at my website too, https://sites.google.com/site/fredienoonan/
As to Stratus asking for confidentiality, the only thing we are keeping secret is the exact spot on that big ocean that I think is the best place to start the search. You're right, we don't want others to be convinced by my analysis and send their ship to that spot. Can you blame us? Stratus is trying to raise money to send its own research ship to start a search there (I don't know how successful this effort will be) but I would certainly like the aircraft to be found (by somebody) and would really like it to be based on my analysis.
So I really don't see any valid comparison with TIGHAR.
gl
That's all nice. Of course I don't blame you for protecting your 'site'.
With all the positives you seem to have to offer, why are you engaged in such a negative campaign against TIGHAR / Gillespie? Why not focus on promoting Stratus if these points are solid? I appreciate your tone here, so obviously it is in you to promote positively - but it is unseemly for you to bank on pulling TIGHAR down as you often do. Why not simply ignore TIGHAR?
Who wouldn't like to have their theory validated by the find - more power to you. But in the end I'm sure it is not that altruistic, Gary - "no free lunch" - you guys are asking for OPM in the publicly supported venue by seeking not for profit status, yet no doubt there will no doubt be profits at some point and in some form if you are successful - all leveraged by the product of tax-benefitted donations made under 'not for profit'. And what of interim operating costs such as livelihood should you and Colin become successful in launching the mission and need to attend to that - will neither of you take a salary as Gillespie does?
Those things are not necessarily crimes in the least, of course - but for the public to have confidence it may help to understand your philosophy and plans thus. We've seen Gillespie live full time out of the TIGHAR till and one can argue as to value all day long, I suppose. Are you in effect saying that you nor Cobb would ever accept a quarter million windfall should you raise a couple or three million in a year to launch a search and busy yourselves making that happen? I'm just curious and like to know those things before buying a fat package or even a hat, probably.
Of course if you and Cobb are going to forego compensation and accept only costs, etc. to get it done and pray for a shot at a book, story rights, etc. later, more power to you and my hat's off.
Just curious, Gary - and I think those things are important where a seeking of 'not for profit' status are concerned - especially from you since you've had much to say about that and how TIGHAR has managed. BTW, that is NOT in defense of TIGHAR - it is simply a hard-nosed consumer curiosity that ought to apply to anyone considering a significant donation to something like Stratus IMO. It is also NOT a personal attack or accusation against you or Colin - but you yourself have made quite a watermark in this industry as a 'consumer advocate', so balance seems in order.
All the best -
Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:10 am
gary217 wrote:Jeff, your really need to address your questions to Colin, it is his business and organization. All I have done is provide to Stratus my analysis of the navigation, almost all of which I have published freely on many forums for all to see, and to criticize.
I have been thinking of writing a book, pulling all of my posts together into a coherent whole but, I'm lazy.
gl
Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:10 am
gary217 wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:====================================
Jeff, your really need to address your questions to Colin, it is his business and organization. All I have done is provide to Stratus my analysis of the navigation, almost all of which I have published freely on many forums for all to see, and to criticize.
I have been thinking of writing a book, pulling all of my posts together into a coherent whole but, I'm lazy.
gl
Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:13 am
Viper Strike wrote:gary217 wrote:Jeff, your really need to address your questions to Colin, it is his business and organization. All I have done is provide to Stratus my analysis of the navigation, almost all of which I have published freely on many forums for all to see, and to criticize.
I have been thinking of writing a book, pulling all of my posts together into a coherent whole but, I'm lazy.
gl
Jeff,
I mentioned, I am a forum follower of Tighar, and this post was presented on the Tighar site by Colin so time ago, whether or not things have changed since then, I am unaware.
Colin Philip Cobb
T1
Posts: 16
XRe: The Stratus Project - The Search for Amelia Earhart
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2014, 10:05:10 AM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Andrew
After that message you're buying all the Guinness next time
Big commercial venture , no, we are in the process of applying for "not for profit" status.
Just incase you thought I was going to spend it on hot tub trips abroad.
And like all "not for profits" there will be accounts published online.
At this present time we are not releasing where we are searching as there are other ventures that will be in the region soon and we think it's wise to keep under wraps.
Tighar is protected by it's Antiques license against others searching in the area.
We have no such protection.
You want clarity well to date I've spent around $20k of my own personal money in the project.
But all things have a limit and any funds we do raise through the shop or donation packages go directly to administration and just keeping the awareness going.
Everything from Ashlins wage as it's her full time job to marketing and SEO for the website and some travel for talks etc.
And like other websites we own from Titanic to Jack the Ripper we pride ourselves on a good looking slick website.
If you want you're more than welcome to visit us here at Stratus HQ in Belfast, all those on the Tighar forum are welcome here to Belfast.
Our passion is born out of Amelia landing here in my home country to become the first woman to cross the Atlantic solo, we are genuine in our efforts and determined to to find Amelia's plane.
I look forward to your first T-Shirt order.
Take care
Colin
Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:30 pm
Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:43 pm
Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:13 pm
Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:25 am
Jeffrey Neville wrote:gary217 wrote:Jeffrey Neville wrote:====================================
Jeff, your really need to address your questions to Colin, it is his business and organization. All I have done is provide to Stratus my analysis of the navigation, almost all of which I have published freely on many forums for all to see, and to criticize.
I have been thinking of writing a book, pulling all of my posts together into a coherent whole but, I'm lazy.
gl
Colin's not a regular here.
That's just further evasiveness anyway, Gary - but I understand that is a hazard of your primary trade: you don't tolerate that in others but you visit it on all who seek that which you care not to answer.
Colin apparently depends on you to be a foil to go after TIGHAR's 'ways and means' since he does nothing to bar you from being both a principle figure in his competing organization and a self-assumed consumer advocate in your tireless striving against the ills of TIGHAR. And, you're anything but lazy, as evidence by all those posts and your 'consumer advocacy'. I simply find your dual efforts hypocritical.
IMO, Stratus doesn't look so very different from much of what you gripe about at TIGHAR. You all just haven't gotten so far down the path, so I'll grant you that - time will tell.
I've gotten all the answers I needed - Stratus is about what I thought: another idea house looking for public leverage.
Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:01 pm
gary217 wrote:
==================================================
Jeff, I don't appreciate your personal attacks (I used to like you.) I accurately described my limited role at Stratus and directed you to pursue your issues directly with Colin, that's all I can do. I have no role in merchandising, or fund raising and I have no knowledge of Colin's actions in these areas. Again, please address your questions to Colin and leave me out of it.
gl
Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:48 pm
Jeffrey Neville wrote:You must be a follower, Viper.
You may have great faith in Cobb and LaPook, but nothing I've seen out of them suggests any more than a warmed-over asking the public to buy into an idea of chasing Gary's idea of 'what Noonan must have done' to some blind hole in the Pacific. That's not terribly different than much of what Gary gripes about at TIGHAR.
Gary's guiding idea for Stratus ought to be subject to peer review if they expect serious buy-in, too.
Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:51 am
Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:30 pm
Jeffrey Neville wrote:You must be a follower, Viper.
You may have great faith in Cobb and LaPook, but nothing I've seen out of them suggests any more than a warmed-over asking the public to buy into an idea of chasing Gary's idea of 'what Noonan must have done' to some blind hole in the Pacific. That's not terribly different than much of what Gary gripes about at TIGHAR.
Gary's guiding idea for Stratus ought to be subject to peer review if they expect serious buy-in, too.
Jeffrey Neville wrote:
I don't know how anyone got the idea that I asked for Gary to reveal the proprietary location Stratus intends to search except for Gary having said I was asking for that at least a couple of times. It's not true.
Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:38 pm