Warbird Information Exchange

Just reading your post about dzus fasteners. If the metal around the fastener holes is distorted but not excessively worn, search the field for someone with a plannishing hammer or an english wheel (also try local hotrod builders as they also use these tools) and have the metal shrunk back.
One of the courses I teach to Boeing new hires is alodine application. firstly the piece to be alodined MUST be water break free,meaning lightly scuffing with a red scotch brite pad, then pouring water on the piece while it lays flat, any 'pullback' ffrom edges must be removed as wherever pullback occurs, alodine will not apply correctly.
Be very very careful with alodine, the stuff is about #2 on the list of things not real good for the human filter system (kidneys, liver, spleen, tec. last time I was in POOPBOYS I didn't see human filters on the shelf next to the ones for Chevies) Look the stuff up in an MSDS book, its chromium flouride, it is very easily absorbed through the skin or eyes if splashed. It can cause partial to complete loss of vision depending on how much you get hit in the face with. It causes what are called 'chrome sores' that are skin lesions that get a very hard, white edge crust and the center stays an unhealthy looking dark red for a very long time, they break open easily and can cause bleeding around the sore that can be hard to stop.
Boeing recomends a maximum of three minutes wet on the surface for adequate protection, what it does is combines with the surface aluminum oxides and hardens the surface of the metal. rinse with tap water in a bottle but be aware that this stuff and everything you've used with it is now haz-mat and must be disposed of correctly. Recommended gloves would be PVC as they are good against alodine for up to 8 hours.(and also work great for mixing a meatloaf for dinner)
You are not looking for a golden shiny finish, just some indication of color shift! Be aware also that the alodine remains very fragile for about 6 hours after application and you can easily rub it off with your fingers and could ingest it (not good for the filters). Use alodine in a very well ventilated area as the fumes will displace oxygen, Boeings painters wear what amounts to a full pressure suit when doing an alodine wash including forced ventilation masks.
You can alodine a bare metal airframe with alodine 1000, every shiny, glistening AMERICAN AIRLINES 777 is alodined in the paint shop. The trick is to do a test piece, apply 1000 for three munutes and neutralize, if any color shift is noted, try 21/2 minutes on another test strip, backing the time down to as little as 30 seconds, remember, you're not making wheat toast here.
The fasteners can be sent to anyone of several platers (that can replate to FAA specs)who will strip and replate the fasteners, bad ones throw out as thy just become a source of later agrivation. I hope this info helps you and others out on the evils of alodine.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

Just reading your post about dzus fasteners. If the metal around the fastener holes is distorted but not excessively worn, search the field for someone with a plannishing hammer or an english wheel (also try local hotrod builders as they also use these tools) and have the metal shrunk back.
One of the courses I teach to Boeing new hires is alodine application. firstly the piece to be alodined MUST be water break free,meaning lightly scuffing with a red scotch brite pad, then pouring water on the piece while it lays flat, any 'pullback' ffrom edges must be removed as wherever pullback occurs, alodine will not apply correctly.
Be very very careful with alodine, the stuff is about #2 on the list of things not real good for the human filter system (kidneys, liver, spleen, tec. last time I was in POOPBOYS I didn't see human filters on the shelf next to the ones for Chevies) Look the stuff up in an MSDS book, its chromium flouride, it is very easily absorbed through the skin or eyes if splashed. It can cause partial to complete loss of vision depending on how much you get hit in the face with. It causes what are called 'chrome sores' that are skin lesions that get a very hard, white edge crust and the center stays an unhealthy looking dark red for a very long time, they break open easily and can cause bleeding around the sore that can be hard to stop.
Boeing recomends a maximum of three minutes wet on the surface for adequate protection, what it does is combines with the surface aluminum oxides and hardens the surface of the metal. rinse with tap water in a bottle but be aware that this stuff and everything you've used with it is now haz-mat and must be disposed of correctly. Recommended gloves would be PVC as they are good against alodine for up to 8 hours.(and also work great for mixing a meatloaf for dinner)
You are not looking for a golden shiny finish, just some indication of color shift! Be aware also that the alodine remains very fragile for about 6 hours after application and you can easily rub it off with your fingers and could ingest it (not good for the filters). Use alodine in a very well ventilated area as the fumes will displace oxygen, Boeings painters wear what amounts to a full pressure suit when doing an alodine wash including forced ventilation masks.
You can alodine a bare metal airframe with alodine 1000, every shiny, glistening AMERICAN AIRLINES 777 is alodined in the paint shop. The trick is to do a test piece, apply 1000 for three munutes and neutralize, if any color shift is noted, try 21/2 minutes on another test strip, backing the time down to as little as 30 seconds, remember, you're not making wheat toast here.
The fasteners can be sent to anyone of several platers (that can replate to FAA specs)who will strip and replate the fasteners, bad ones throw out as thy just become a source of later agrivation. I hope this info helps you and others out on the evils of alodine.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

The last post about using Alodine 1000 verses 1200 is a good idea. One other chemical you can use on bare aluminum is a metal brightener called Cee Bee 6, not sure where to buy it, but we use it buy the truck load on our airliners before polishing them (American Airlines). You spray or brush it on and let it sit for a few minutes then rinse it off with water.

I have no idea why my post about alodine came up three times other than to put the blame on COMCAST who seems to be having lots of 'issues' of late, again I apologize

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

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One of the courses I teach to Boeing new hires is alodine application. firstly the piece to be alodined MUST be water break free,meaning lightly scuffing with a red scotch brite pad, then pouring water on the piece while it lays flat, any 'pullback' ffrom edges must be removed as wherever pullback occurs, alodine will not apply correctly.

[u]Do you use deinozed water?[/u]

Boeing recomends a maximum of three minutes wet on the surface for adequate protection, what it does is combines with the surface aluminum oxides and hardens the surface of the metal.

[u]Are you using Dip tanks or a brush ?
How do you keep it from drying out in the 3 minutes if you don't use dip tanks?[/u]

rinse with tap water in a bottle but be aware that this stuff and everything you've used with it is now haz-mat and must be disposed of correctly.

[u]Is it really tap water or deinoized?[/u]


Recommended gloves would be PVC as they are good against alodine for up to 8 hours.(and also work great for mixing a meatloaf for dinner)
You are not looking for a golden shiny finish, just some indication of color shift! Be aware also that the alodine remains very fragile for about 6 hours after application and you can easily rub it off with your fingers and could ingest it (not good for the filters).

[u]Is it then held in a drying room during that period?[/u]


Use alodine in a very well ventilated area as the fumes will displace oxygen, Boeings painters wear what amounts to a full pressure suit when doing an alodine wash including forced ventilation masks.

Another couple of items about Alodine/Iridite and a bunch of other trade names of the same stuff....It can be mixed at numerous strength levels, so follow the directions exactly to get the best results. Also once mixed, it has a finite open-air life. Keep it closed up as much as possible to prolong it's useful life. When it starts taking 5+ minuets to begin to see the color shift, it's pretty dead and time for a new batch.

Lastly, at least double bag any rags or paper that has been wetted with the solution. It can react with things in the trash and start a fire. I've seen it done even with water soaked wiping rags from cleaning up parts. If a white cloth or paper towel has ANY tint on it from the solution, consider it loaded with it. Safest thing to do is bag everything you use on the part after cleaning it and before the surface is cured.

A bit more followup for broken wrench and thanx for additional info provided by cvwerks.
Regular old tap water is just fine, unless you live somewhere where there are lots of salts or minerals in the water (like Eastern Montana where the water tastes like bricks and smells like stagnant train smoke). My Moms Dad lived in Glasgow so I know what the water tastes like there!
Allow the alodine to air dry after flushing, just a few minutes is all, don't rub as you will degrade or remove the alodine. As I tell my students at Boeing 'you're getting paid well to watch water dry'
Alodine waste and all the materials used in conjunction with alodine are to be treated as toxic haz-mat because they are! Every rag, wiper, Q-tip, glove, whatever is haz-mat, I cannot emphasize that enough.
Alodine wetted natural fibers (like cotton T shirt material) can spontaneously combust in acrid, dark yellow smoke that is also toxic to breathe. DONOT place alodine waste in with chemical or paint waste as you could get a really spectacular surprize, nothing like a chemical/paint fire to liven up a slow Saturday afternoon at the hanger.
Place all your alodine waste in a stout zip lock freezer type bag and find someone either on the field or a plating service that can safely dispose of the stuff. Don't be a tightwad and just toss it in the garbage, the stuff will get into ground water, pay the couple of bucks to get it done right!
If you are doing bare metal type grounds on your airframe, after assemblyof the studs and prior to priming/touchups, use alodine 600 as it is more conductive as a ground path, and watch your parts stackups as far as nuts, bolts, washers as mixing standards means all you are doing is building a tiny battery that will corrode in time. apply with a Qtip, wait three or so minutes and flush with water, and allow to air dry.
Again, use all the personal protective equipment you can lay your hands on, safety glasses, particle type mask (party hats found at HOMERs or SLOWES)and polyvynil chloride PVC gloves(check with your local automotive paint store or chemical supply house, a box of them is really cheap insurance) NOT repeat NOT latex 'exam' gloves they are permiable (liquids can pass through them easily) and alodine will get through your skin and into your body.
Alodine does weaken fairly rapidly in solution so keep the lid or cap on tight, and, as cvwerks recommends, when you notice the reaction taking too long or have spotty results, dispose of the solution as above and obtain some more. It has a shelf life unopened of about 30 days (less if exposed to light, so don't put your PLASTIC bottle in the window).

_________________
Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

I read that you could use the waste water in Cement as it is a approved way to discard the of the alodine water mix..

Things I got from this..

Regular tap water is fine as longs as it smells and tastes good prior to use.

If it takes more than 5 min for a color change the Alodine needs replaced!?

Stack up of washer.. Make sure you are using all the same type of washers.!? steel, aluminum, Stainless Steel. or you could create a battery.

PVC Gloves and discard after 8 hours of use?!

I read somwhere that you should wait 6 hours after alodine treatment to let the alodine to harden up!?

Also so say they wash their parts in Dawn washing liquid prior to etching? They say it is to clean the parts first...

Also primer should be applied within 24 hours or the process should be repated!?

I don't see why you couldn't mix the dilute alodine/water mix and make a driveway out of it, the chances of having someone come along and start licking your driveway must be pretty slim (depends on your neighborhood), check with your neighbors and see when Dave is gonna put in that pad for the motorhome-
Regular tap water is fine as long as it's not naturally full of minerals and salts (the stuff that requires a sodium softener system before you can drink it or shower in it) the chemicals may or may not impact the process, but I'd hate to waste the time and cost just to have poor results, around here (Western Washington) we are blessed with tap water that visitors describe as 'better than booze!'
You can safely wear PVC gloves for up to 8 hours and not have to worry about degradation of the protection, but 8 hours in PVC gloves would give you fingertips like prunes!
With ground stud stackups, stay within the same metal nobility range with your fasteners and washers, i.e: don't use stainless steel screws or bolts and aluminum washers or brass nuts, cad plated hardware is an 'OK' substitution but cad has it's own issues with conductivity and some reactivity to other metals, like it poisons titanium.
Yes, let the alodine process 'setup' before you go applying primers or attempting to install fasteners as the finish takes 6 to8 hours to harden. Alodining should be about the last thing you do before calling it a night so it can set up overnight.
Gentle washing with DAWN should work just fine to give you a 'water break free' surface as you are trying to get a surface that has no oils or chemical residues prior to application, the scotchbrite/water technique is used in the factory as it gets the job done in a production type environment, and Boeing produces millions of gallons of waste water each day, and every drop gets treated before it leaves the plant.$$$$$$$!!!
Water break free surface would be the same as you washing a cookie sheet and as you rinse it you see areas where grease is still present. You know darned well you better not try to get away with that as your significant other would A)put a knot on your head, and B)take the task away from you saying 'here, let ME do that'. You are looking for a surface that with water on it presents a surface wide bubble of water right to the edges with no greasy pockets or what is refered to as 'pull back'(self explanitory)prior to application.
Alodine chemically hardens the surface and stops oxidation of the surface,
As long as nothing has disturbed the surface, you can prime just about any time prior to installation, again, I'd make priming about the last thing I did before closing up for the night, cleaning the spray equipment will give you a chance to spool down and the overnight set up will allow the primer to do a complete dry cycle. For primer, visit with your local auto paint supplier and see if they can obtain water based SRF (solvent resistant finish) which is a water based epoxy primer impervious to fluids, SKYDROL,fuels, etc. and have it tinted to match good old chromate primer (if you are replicating a 'classic' finish), chromate primers are very toxic and you may not be able to find it anymore especially in places like Kalifornia where its (along with everything else)classified as a known carsinogen.
When you notice that it's taking way too long for the alodine to react, dispose of it. Application requires the surface to remain wet with alodine for the specified time (about 2 1/2 to 3 minutes) you can acomplish this by keeping the surface damp with and old diaper and gently wiping the surface (wearing a PVC glove and PPE please!).

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

you can get a lot of excellent more friendly products from these guys:

http://www.eldoradochem.com/aircraft-maintenance.htm

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Losing faith in humanity one individual at a time

Great find! I knew someone out there had info like this-Eldorado has a really good reputation from all I hear!
Thnx again Asterperious for the direction-

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

For small parts I use the Alodine at 100% strength and dip the parts into a plastic coffee can full. I then return the unused portion to the bottle using a plastic funnel.

What is titanium poisoning? What does it do?

How do you know if you got all the excess alodine off of your part?
( I seen some parts that wern't rinsed properly corroding..)

Also I was going to use AKZO Fuel resistant primer.. My RV is going to burn JET A. What does boeing use in their fuel tanks.. Do they use courtlands...?

Also on the Boeings do they prime between the faying edges/lap seams before alpplying proseal?
Do they use A type of sealant between the seams?

On the fuselage tube do they prime the inside of the tube skins and leave the outer skin bare prior to installation?


Sorry about all off the qustions... It is not often i get to speak to a production god...

[quote="The Inspector"]Great find! I knew someone out there had info like this-Eldorado has a really good reputation from all I hear!
Thnx again Asterperious for the direction- [/quote]

In the hardous V.S. Non hardous chemicals Debate

Do you think the non hazordous paints are as good as the hazordous?

Cadmium reacts with titanium and causes it to decompose on a granular level often refered to as poisioning, it will eat through a Ti fastener and cause the head or nut to fall off (that became a HUGE ISSUE on the B-1A prototype when the boron backbone retainer bolts all started raining down into the weapons bays because of using cad plated washers on the 7/8's bolts, everyones tool box was gone through and ANY cad plated tool went out to the car rightnow!!)
If you keep the surface wet during the process, you should not have issues with staining which happens when you allow alodine to dry in place. The finish when complete will not be a constant color or irridesence, it will be varigated and really look pretty cool (man, if I could only get that ghostly metalic look onto the tank of my bike....)just be sure to flush adequately but resist the urge to use a finger and rub.
Boeing uses a special fuel tank primer that you can't get! It's identified by its own 'in house' code, same with the sealant which is different from the environmental seal used outside the tanks. And it's a very long way from PRO SEAL.
All edges are primed prior to assembly and parts are both fay surface sealed (along the mating edges )prior to mating causing squeeze out along the entire edge being joined, but also, in a lot of instances they are also fillet (not pronounced feelay, thats what you do to fish, it's fillet just like its spelled)sealed in certain locations like spar to wing skin edges.
Every environmental area is primed to keep the possibility of corrosion to a minimum. The outer skin surfaces are covered with a plastic spray on material called "spraylat' it protects the skin surface from scuffs and scratches because the outer layer of the skins are ALCLAD which is 100% pure aluminum and a hand wipe would show on the skin as far away as you could see that airplane!
Just for your budget considerations, a set of skins for a Boeing jet are all made from the same batch of aluminum so they all match as far as tone and brightness, repalcing a skin because of some inattentive yahoo can cost upwards of $300,000.00 to replace, and if it don't match, the customer WILL deduct big bux off the price of the jet as compensation.
Believe me, I'm not in the least bothered by the questions, my assigned task from now until I catch the big nap is to give away 40 years of knowledge to whomever can put it to use. I've already passed it along to my son (who is on WIX as 262crew) and he's an ace sheetmetal and systems guy, who just left the 262 project to work @ Boeing because of the bennies required as a single Dad with three kids.
The hazardous stuff is being weeded out just as fast as they can get rid of it, at least here in Washington state, so unless you have a shed full of old paints and chemicals stashed away, it's becoming a moot point, acording to a editorial in the current issue of HEMMINGS CLASSIC CARS, thanks to EPA legislation that no one knew about (don't get me going on governments!)unless by 2001, you have a certified $100,00.00 paint booth, you won't be able to go to the auto body store and buy paint because of the VOC's (see HCC vol #41 page 6, Rich Lentinellos column)

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-