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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:15 pm 
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To expand on my initial argument a bit, the larger point is that video gamers are the group we need to cultivate. The way I see it, there are various "circles" of interest in warbirds. In the outermost are those people with just a passing interest in military aviation. Given the innate "coolness" factor, they will always exist. As you move closer to the center, the level of enthusiasm increases, but the number of individuals increases. Without this inner group, it will be very difficult - if not impossible - to sustain the community. My fear is that we risk alienating them with a dismissive attitude.

As an aside, there's a whole reddit community, r/gatekeeping, dedicated to calling out those who arbitrarily decided who is and is not allowed to participate in some community. I've never bothered much with it (which explains why I didn't think about it until now), but this whole discussion would fit right in there.

k5083 wrote:
So this is all true of course, but one point should be made about the difference between simulations as they apply to flying versus infantry combat. Flying - even the most intense combat flying - is like using a computer in that you do it sitting on your butt. You manipulate controls using relatively fine movements that can be duplicated on a simulator rig and at least reasonably aped even on a home unit. Infantry combat is more like football. No matter how many hours of Madden games you've played, it won't help you survive even one real NFL football down. Same with ground combat, fighting zombies, and most other things that computers can "simulate." The intense physical aspect, and even the physical requirements for being any good at them, make it a much more different experience. The sitting-down nature of flying is the thing that makes pro level flight simulators useful for training in a way that they can't be for those other things. Certainly, the consequence-free nature of it still matters a lot in terms of distancing it from reality. I think that in the professional simulator context, they work hard to make crashing seem like a big deal by shaming you hard when you mess up, to try to restore a little of that sense of consequence.

All great points. I was just reading about some amputee pilots today - Bader, Maresyev, Rudel - and it occurred to me that they were only able to continue their service because they were pilots. If they were ground pounders, they almost certainly would have been forced into a desk job. Ironically, in Bader's case, it was pointed out that that the loss of his legs made have inadvertently made him a better pilot since it would make him more resistant to G-LOC.

Rauhbatz wrote:
Bob "Punchy" Powell, 352nd FG ace shared he went to a video gaming convention a number of years back.

In addition to giving a presentation on WW2 combat to gamers which was very well received, they also had Bob check out the control throws and harmonies on the P-51 B/C/D on a a video game from a company attending the conference. The company made adjustments to the aircraft controls to match Bob's feedback.

I have a good friend who is a former U.S. Navy helicopter and current JetBlue pilot. A few years back, I shared some Ace Combat related content with him and his response stuck with me because of how non-judgmental it was: "I enjoy learning about how other people experience aviation."

k5083 wrote:
I'm pleased to see someone taking this subject seriously.

I was checking my inbox this morning and it just so happens I received an email about a highly relevant upcoming webinar titled Simulating Aviation for Fun and Profit put on by the Aviation Cultures group in Australia. I encourage anyone interested in the subject to take part, as the Mark V conference I attended last year was excellent.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:01 pm 
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To follow up on the mini-conference mentioned in the last post, the National World War II Museum hosted a roundtable titled How Video Games Shape Our View of World War II at the end of last month. As further evidence of the growing influence of video games on the real world, I offer two examples.

The first concerns the origins of the myth of the "Ghost of Kyiv" in the current war in Ukraine. A Colonel Tomb like figure, the legend was almost certainly popularized - if not outright created - by a tweet from a WarThunder player with the username ScottishKoala. Near as I can tell, it was most likely inspired by a machinima called The Ghost that was filmed in Digital Combat Simulator. Having spent a good amount of time trying to understand where the myths and attitudes of the past came from, it's fascinating to actually be living through period of another and watch it develop in real time. "Scratch one flattop", "sighted sub, sank same", "send more Japanese", Colin Kelly – these are all examples of the same type of stories as the Ghost of Kyiv, just 80 years earlier. Both then and now each story was embellished and repeated by the popular media of the time. (For example, Tom & Jerry.)

The second, although based on a non-aviation video game, is illustrative of the origins of nose art. An SH-60 from HSM-51, DET-4, was photographed on February 21st of last year with an unofficial detachment insignia that references the video game Among Us. I find nose art to be one of the most difficult topics to explain to the public - especially because the question often comes from children. Not because of its controversial aspects, but because there's not a simple A to B answer. "Why did airplanes use superchargers?" is a pretty straightforward concept involving the physics of internal combustion engines and air density. The complexities of human psychology are not. The realization that nose art was essentially the internet meme of its day really helped my understanding of the subject and I have started to consider using that understanding to explain it to others. (A fact that, I will note, is not lost on others as well.)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:10 pm 
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Noah, once you have your article complete, I'd be interested in printing it in our CAF wing newsletter. As membership officer for our wing, I've pondered how to gain new members, especially younger members. Video games are an excellent gateway drug, and I personally know someone who has played a whole bunch of War Thunder and is now looking into beginning flight training - that's exactly what we should be working to promote if we want to make sure that the warbirds we enjoy will have curators after we're gone.

(also, I should note that Scott Yoak himself is a War Thunder player, though he says the P-51 flight model isn't quite correct, as he's tried replicating his show routine in it)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:57 am 
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Have Blue wrote:
Noah, once you have your article complete, I'd be interested in printing it in our CAF wing newsletter.

I know it has been a while since I posted to this thread and I must apologize for not continuing the discussion further or finishing my article. However, I do have a few thoughts that I jotted down a while ago and meant to post, but never did. They are somewhat disjointed and a bit off the original thrust of this thread, but still seem sufficiently relevant to include. The first set concerns reimagining of real world concepts in the context of the game's environment:
Noha307 wrote:
One of the interesting things about military flight simulators is the way that they mimic real life aspects of aviation with gameplay mechanics. A few examples:
  • Ace Combat features a type of missile, patterned after actual semi-active homing missiles, that require the player to keep the target inside a circle on the HUD until impact. Interestingly, for the sake of gameplay balancing, the disadvantage of the "fire-and-monitor" nature of these missiles is offset by the fact that they have a better chance of hitting their targets than active homing missiles.
  • War Thunder takes War Emergency Power and, in the less realistic game modes, implements it as an "arcade-style" boost. In other words, it simply makes the aircraft fly faster with no long term detrimental effect on the engine. (As an aside, there is a whole separate discussion here about how the concept of "boost" in popular culture (see "NOS" in the Fast and Furious automobile franchise) seems to have been arisen from the use of WEP and turbochargers during the war.)
  • For inexperienced players, multiple games offer "novice" controls, which allow the airplane to be steered like a car with coupled roll and yaw. The intent is strikingly similar to the original design philosophy behind the Erco Ercoupe.

The other regards the impact that real life storytelling - particularly oral histories - had on video games:
Noha307 wrote:
Even though it is set in a fictional world and featured modern aircraft, Ace Combat Zero offers interesting evidence of the influence that real world historiography has on video games. This is because the story is told through oral history interviews with other pilots. Oral histories of World War II, which became popular following Studs Terkel's "The Good War" are now a staple of American military history - with efforts like the Veterans History Project seeking to interview as many former servicemembers as possible. Interestingly, Ace Combat Zero was released in 2006 - the same year that the television show Dogfights premiered on the History Channel. The two share a striking similarity in that they both use a virtual environment to either create or recreate the stories the veterans are relating.

Zero was not the only military video game to latch onto the oral history format. Trailers for the video game Halo 3 featured "veterans" acting in the exact same role: framing the narrative by describing their interaction with the main character. In one regard, the advertising campaign goes even further than Zero, as it set the interviews in a military museum.

A bit more on the topic in the original post, the summer edition of NASM's Air and Space Quarterly featured an article about the future of plastic model making. At the end, one of the individuals profiled in the article offers an opinion that is exactly what is needed:
Preston Lerner wrote:
At the moment, baby boomers are the primary market for both vintage kits and the hobby at large. But despite fears that model building will go the way of felt hat-making, the craft continues to survive. Yes, the numbers are paltry compared to what the market was 50 years ago, but there’s been an uptick in activity since the pandemic began, and newbies continue to discover the hobby all the time.

“I had a kid, about three or four months ago, who brought in a Panzer IV [German tank] model,” says Pentifallo. “He’d painted it purple and I complimented him on it. We’ve got to encourage these kids because they’re going to be our next generation of modelers.”

It’s hard to imagine modelers-to-be feeling the emotional attachment and wellspring of nostalgia that draws boomers back to the vintage kits of the 1950s and ’60s, but maybe next-gen modelers will create a golden age of their own. That’s one of the most appealing virtues of modeling: One size needn’t fit all. A Focke-Wulf Fw 190 can be built as one of a dozen variants and finished in countless liveries, depending on when and where it fought. It can even be painted purple.

For what it's worth, I'm guessing there's a good chance that that kid chose to paint it purple because of a certain anime franchise.

On that note, there's an interesting parallel here as well. Whereas older generations grew up on shows like the Final Countdown, there's an manga/anime called Zipang that could conceivably fill a similar role for current generations. What makes the comparison so useful is that the latter uses the essentially the exact same premise as the former - sending a modern warship back in time to the war in the Pacific, but from the opposite point of view. (The juxtaposition is fascinating for another reason as well: much like the difference between how Godzilla is viewed in Japan and the United States, the Japanese series deals with much more serious moral issues - namely the struggles of the pacifist crew to deal with an imperial Japan - whereas the American production is a simple escapist fantasy blockbuster. However, if you just want to see a modern guided missile destroyer obliterate some SBDs and TBFs, it's good for that too.) To bring things full circle, multiple Ace Combat games include a "named ace" that is a direct reference to the series.

avenger2504 wrote:
Last weekend, near Christchurch in New Zealand I and a few other aircraft enthusiasts visited a chap building a full scale replica of a Fb6 Mosquito cockpit. This is to be a full motion simulator. Basically it will be complete from the nose to about the mid point of the wing and the wings to about the centerline of each engine. He has used some real mosquito cockpits parts and also 3D printing for parts hard to find. He is also working with the lads restoring an ex-RNZAF Fb6 Mosquito at the Ferrymead Aeronautical Society(a couple of them were along too. It will be complete with everything a Fb6 had at least the visual look. What I saw he had all hooked up in the hal fusleage he is fitting out (yes even building it like the factory did, in two halves!
Once finished it will be used for Sim missions. I've already put my hand up for a fly or at least be the Navigator!

The Battle of Britain Memorial Flight announced a few months ago that they've put together a very authentic Spitfire simulator - complete with virtual reality headset. However, what's particularly relevant for the discussion here is that they imply it could be used as a training aid for pilots of actual Spitfires. Apparently, they feel that the level of realism has reached a point where it could be considered at least a partial alternative to a flyable airplane.

Finally, one might argue that, sure, kids enjoy playing games about warbirds, but they don't actually want to get involved in the real thing. However, I've found the Warbirds of Glory Museum and the 20 Under 40 honorees to be good counterpoints. Particularly the fact that the former not only involves a younger generation, but was founded and is actually run by them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:51 am 
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There is a division in regards to Flightsims.One crowd only want to go for the fun part of it with low realism and cheap quick skills..
Other is full realism where getting it as close as you can get at no expense spared.
One company Im following..
https://heritageflightsim.com/home/blog/

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:00 am 
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Spitty wrote:
There is a division in regards to Flightsims. One crowd only want to go for the fun part of it with low realism and cheap quick skills..
Other is full realism where getting it as close as you can get at no expense spared.

Those "low realism and cheap skill" offerings are a less intimidating barrier of entry for people interested in getting into the hobby. My 3 year old likes to sit on my lap and play Microsoft Flight Simulator with me. When he is a little older to play on his own I am glad there is more arcade like option such as War Thunder if he is interested in a combat flight sim and maybe he will get more serious sims like DCS later. There is an a$$ for every seat. I think the more options available to get people interested in aviation the better.

On a separate tangent, in a crossover between the flight simulator world and warbird world there is a developer "DC Designs" who has announced their 2023 development roadmap. Included is plans to complete development of a P-61 for Microsoft Flight Simulator. Some proceeds from the sales of this add-on will be provided towards the restoration of the MAAM P-61 restoration.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:10 pm 
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Spitty wrote:
There is a division in regards to Flightsims.One crowd only want to go for the fun part of it with low realism and cheap quick skills..
Other is full realism where getting it as close as you can get at no expense spared.


Those are not necessarily different crowds, they can be the same people at different times. Even people who enjoy the max realism may sometimes like to kick back with something less demanding and more relaxing. For one thing, it takes a lot of non-flying time at the computer to fly accurately. In real life, it takes you at least, what, 20 minutes from the time you walk out to your Cherokee to do the preflight inspection, checklists, start, warm-up, get clearance from ATC, etc., and are finally ready to taxi. Quite a lot longer if your ride happens to be a PC-12, an F-15 or an A320 and you have to do a flight plan, program the FMS, and so on. The more realistic sims force you to do all of this stuff and it takes just as much time. Even the hardcore simmers don't always have time to do that after the dishes are done and the kids put to bed. I don't know any simmers who don't at least sometimes auto-start at the foot of the runway and jump into the air.

The fact that flight sims are not only different things to different people, but also different things to the SAME people, dooms those impressive physical replica cockpits to a super small niche. Hardly any recreational simmer wants to fly just one thing all the time, even if it's a Spitfire. Moreover, even the guys who do relatively generic or configurable physical cockpit replicas are probably out of step with the trend in simming, which is toward VR, where your physical setup doesn't matter at all as long as your controls are where you can find them without seeing them.

That's cool about the P-61 project. Several of the flight sim companies work with museums to build their models, sometimes doing 3D scans of the plane and cockpit, and it is good to see the revenue flowing back to the operators. I'm pretty much an automatic buyer of any new warbird in MSFS but it will give extra satisfaction to know that MAAM is getting a little piece of it.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2023 6:35 pm 
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The Spring 2023 issue of NASM's Air & Space Quarterly had a pair of articles about Microsoft Flight Simulator. One, Preservation by Computer, describes how the head of MFS was able to use 3D scans of the Spirit of St. Louis created by the National Air and Space Museum in the program. The other, Pilot Program, covers the development history of MFS.

Also, I came across a post on reddit the other day about just this subject and there's quite the interesting range of opinions in the comments.

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