Warbird Information Exchange

There are two Mustang airframes airframes with the Israeli AF Museum for which I don't have IDs (s/n or c/n).

Airframe #1: Was operated by the Swedish AF with unknown serial number, then to Isreal and operated as s/n 188 and later as s/n 38. Currently marked as "38".

Airframe #2: Currently marked as "53".

I am guessing it is a long shot... but does anyone here know the North American C/Ns or the USAAF S/Ns?

Mike

_________________
Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
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Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
Do you want to find or contribute to the documented history of an aircraft? If so then start with the Airframes Database.

Thanks Rob!

Mike

_________________
Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
http://www.facebook.com/AerialVisuals

Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
Do you want to find or contribute to the documented history of an aircraft? If so then start with the Airframes Database.

Speaking of the IDF, About a dozen IDF F-15s and a 707 support bird stopped over here in Bangor last night. Quite a racket when they all flew out this morning.

You didn't happen to get pictures did you?

Mike

_________________
Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
http://www.facebook.com/AerialVisuals

Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
Do you want to find or contribute to the documented history of an aircraft? If so then start with the Airframes Database.

Hmmmm.... Something doesn't seem quite right here. The photos I found were on Airliners.net and were dated 2000 and taken at the AF Museum in Isreal. The two planes indicated by Rob may have once carried the same serials of the two planes in question, but they may not be one and the same. Dick Phillips emailed me indicating that the Isreali airframes were often remarked and reserialled, sometimes with different number on opposite sides of the fuselage to keep opposing forces from estimating the strength of the force. On top of this the two airframes Rob indicates,
44-63864 and 44-63992 were out of Isreal long before 2000.

Here are links to the Airliners.net photos incase anyone is interested...

Here is the Mustang marked "53"...
2000: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/162539/M

Here is the Mustang marked "38"...
1995: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/509256/M
2000: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/095704/M


So I am left searching for the true IDs of these two airframes. What are the odds they still have their original data plates?

Regards,

Mike

_________________
Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
http://www.facebook.com/AerialVisuals

Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
Do you want to find or contribute to the documented history of an aircraft? If so then start with the Airframes Database.

The odds are badly against you, Mike

the ID of these two ships, plus another one (#39) currently under restoration at Hatzerim, is not known and maybe impossible to determine. The IDFAF usually did a great job in obliterating former identities of their combat aircraft, especially those that were acquired through obscure channels.


I collected many photographs over the last few years and these airframes have seen some changes in livery, and I am almost sure that the current external appearance shares little in common with the former ID's, #53 for example also carried #008 at one time.
Moreover due to the fact that the IDFAF had a high attrition rate during 1956 and saw many airframes cannibalized to get others going.

#53 aka #008 for example has a crude rudder and a wrong spinner because the original items were missing and no replacement units could be found.

After the remainder of the Israeli P-51 was either towed to Kibbutzes as playground attractions or left deterioriating at various airbase dumps, it was difficult for the Museum to acquire complete airframes; so another round of cannibalizing took place. At the same time, a number of fuselages and wings was exported to the UK where they were or are rebuilt to flying condition.

Feel free to contact me by PM or e-mail martin[at]swissmustangs.ch
for some more info.

Cordially
Martin / Swiss Mustangs
http://www.swissmustangs.ch

That is what I figured. But even long shots work out some times.



Will do.

Mike

_________________
Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
http://www.facebook.com/AerialVisuals

Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
Do you want to find or contribute to the documented history of an aircraft? If so then start with the Airframes Database.

...and as late news:

#53 aka #008 now carries #41 (June 2004)..... a historical serial but surely fake on this airframe...

Martin / Swiss Mustangs

... has anyone considered asking Paul Coggan or interrogating his various Mustang/Warbird survivors books?

Gregory

I have been meaning to add a copy to my collection but have not done so yet. Gotta get one.

Mike

_________________
Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
http://www.facebook.com/AerialVisuals

Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
Do you want to find or contribute to the documented history of an aircraft? If so then start with the Airframes Database.

According to the excellent museum series by Bob Ogden, vol. 1 "Asia" (2nd ed.), 53 is a composite that previously carried codes 008 and 73, while 38 was possibly 18 (or, to quote Bob literally, 18 (?)).

The only problem with the Ogden series is the lack of a "current" date anywhere in the books. I think that Asia Mk 2 is from about 1996.

Given the extensive research Bob puts into his series, I am convinced that he could not find any more details in the Coggan books.

On the other hand, at least one WIXer has visited Israel in the past to identify other Merlin-engined fighters (of the pretty variety, I would add) and might be able to shed more light on the Mistery Mustang Maze.

Gregory