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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:46 pm 
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Does anyone have info on this aircraft? Is there anyone that is from Iceland reading this, that knows any info first hand? We are offering a reward for the army aircorp data tag. (we have the three missing corners still attached to the airframe)


http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51who/272.shtml


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:57 pm 
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Warhawks1 wrote:
Does anyone have info on this aircraft? Is there anyone that is from Iceland reading this, that knows any info first hand? We are offering a reward for the army aircorp data tag. (we have the three missing corners still attached to the airframe)


http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51who/272.shtml


Plenty of good info in that thread there on MustangsMustangs...

The dataplate is currently attached to "Twilight Tear" at Duxford. Good luck with that one. The hypothesis is that the plate and ID were sold to Col Itzhaki when he was building/rebuilding the airframe that became 4X-AIM. The Israeli airplanes had either no USAAF serial or bogus serials due to how they were originally imported. He needed a legitimate ID plate to get the thing licensed and registered. I don't have any further details on it, though...the info is via Dick Phillips.

From the looks of your post, you work for Mr Fagen, who owns the wreckage currently...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:07 pm 
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Ask Bill, he's still around.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:35 am 
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Stoney wrote:
Ask Bill, he's still around.


Bill actually said several things in the thread on the other forum:

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Indeed, N-251L was my P-51. I bought it from the Israeli Air Force through Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI)who modified it to a two-place, installed all new Lear avionic and autopilot systems, painted it and obtained FAA Limited Category Airworthiness (1960). I flew it from Tel Aviv to Athens across the Med (IFR) and from there to my home in Geneva, Switzerland where I kept it until I sold it to an American buyer (name forgotten)in 1963.
I modified the aircraft by installing the Trans-Florida Aviation (Cavalier) tip-tanks and larger canopy.

The American buyer hired a French pilot to ferry the aircraft back to the U.S.. This pilot had never flown a P-51 before. His first landing was at Kevlavik, Iceland after a non-stop flight from Paris Toussus-le-Noble airport. The pilot flared too high and while at low airspeed apparently applied full 61" of noise. The aircraft rotated leftward, the wing struck the runway and the aircraft began to cartwheel down the runway. The engine broke off as did both wings and the aft fuselage leaving the cockpit section intact and on its side. There was no fire. The pilot was alive but during these violent maneuvers his head got pretty busted up. He later died of these injuries. He had worn no crash helmet and the shoulder-harness was found tied in a knot and dropped behind his seat. This was a survivable accident, but some folks know better than others.

More details are available in my book, "FLY FAST - SIN BOLDLY, Flying, Spying and Surviving" available from me at my email address for 28 bucks incl inscription and S&H. Personal chks ok. Who would cheat an old Mustang pilot?

BTW, I got lotsa P-51 time when I was in the USAF.

I have pre-crash photos of 251-L which I can email you as well if you wish.

All best to Mustang owners and fans all over the world!

Bill

William P. Lear, Jr.
lear@cfl.rr.com


And....

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The data plate from my P-51D, N-251L, which crashed in Iceland, was apparently removed by someone as it is no longer there and, I am told, there is evidence of it having been chiseled off.

What confuses me is that another P-51D has been registered in Europe bearing the same serial number as mine (44-63864). There is evidently some mix-up here but I have a solution to discovering if the recently registered P-51 with the same S/N is indeed my former aircraft.

An examination of the wings should reveal the installation of two-to-three additional spars which were installed to accommodate the extra weight/load the TransFlorida 110 gal (ea) tiptank installation kit required. The wing skins were removed and replaced for this "no-small-job" installation. There should also be evidence of tank brackets, fuel line plumbing and electrical wiring - or the removal of same.

The additional wing spars are the key, however. If they ain't there, then that rebuilt airplane isn't my N-251L S/N 44-63864 - period.

William P. Lear, Jr.
lear@cfl.rr.com


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:45 am 
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no need to add anything to Randy's comments...

but here's how this ship looked like

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N251L at Geneva

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N251L at Altenrhein

same photos and two more also appear on my website....

http://www.swissmustangs.ch/59692.html (scroll down)

cordially
Martin

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:59 am 
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Hear are some photos of some of the parts, clearly identifying it as Lear Jr.'s airplane. We also have the vertical with N251L on the side and lots more parts to prove we absolutely have N251L. We also have all logs, registration and airworthiness certificate. The question is, does someone else have our data tag flying around or is it on someones shelf in their souvenir collection?


Thanks Guys!

Don't want to hear any accusations, only facts!
False accustions doesn't help anything.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:40 am 
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Well, THIS should get interesting. Can't wait to see how this one turns out. :shock:

Lynn


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:41 am 
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I think Randy hit the nail square on the head in his first post.
There are a couple threads from the past few months about the a/c
in duxford and how 'it was stolen' from the IAF and flown out of Isreal and sold. :?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:55 pm 
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Anyone have a shot of the Twilight Tear dataplate?

Does anyone else find it interesting that Cham Gill and Ken Hake owned both the "Twilight Tear" airframe AND the N251L wreckage in the 1990s?

:)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:51 am 
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Warhawks1 wrote:
We also have all logs, registration and airworthiness certificate. The question is, does someone else have our data tag flying around or is it on someones shelf in their souvenir collection?
Seems to me that if you can show a continuous chain of ownership via bills of sale you should just register the aircraft. If someone in the future tries to register another aircraft with the same serial number they will have some 'splaining to do to the FAA. As far as the tag itself, make a replacement tag and be done with it. Maybe you want the original plate for historical purposes which is fine, but the plate by itself without being able to show the continuous chain of ownership is useless as far as the FAA is concerned.

I can make you another data plate and tear it up with a pair of pliers and sell it to you for big bux if you like! :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:01 am 
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So is there a suggestion here that the "Combat vet " Twilight Tear at Duxford might not in fact be that bird after all?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:04 am 
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Worms, cans and sleeping dogs come to mind on this one...................


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:56 am 
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Randy Haskin wrote:
Anyone have a shot of the Twilight Tear dataplate?

Does anyone else find it interesting that Cham Gill and Ken Hake owned both the "Twilight Tear" airframe AND the N251L wreckage in the 1990s?

:)

That's the registry, or (at first) the Warbirds Directory messing things up. I sent the following note to Scott in December hoping he will clean up this entry in the registry!

T J Johansen wrote:
The entry for P-51D 44-63864 is not correct. Two a/c have used this serial # and both of them are still registred as 44-63864. G-CBNM in the UK and N42805 in the US. The phase where we are talking about one single airframe would be this entry:

The known history of 44-63864.
Built by NAA at Inglewood Plant, 1944.
Delivered to USAAF as 44-63864, Dec. 1944.
- Served with 8th AF/78th FG/83rd FS.
- Flown by Lt. Hubert Davis as Twilight Tear/HL*W.
Delivered to Royal Swedish AF as Fv26158, June 17, 1949.
- Served with F16 at Uppsala coded K.
- Later served with F4 at Ostersund.
Henry Wallenburg & Co, Feb. 9, 1953.
- Overhauled by Svenska Flygverkstaderna, Malmo.
Delivered to IDFAF as 38, 1953-1961.

Then the two different a/c which both claim to be 63864 have these two individual histories from demob from the IDFAF.

44-63864 as currently owned by TFC, Duxford, UK
Israeli Air Force Museum, 19??-1978.
- Reported open storage, Herzlia, Israel, 1978.
Israel Itzhaki, Sde-Dov (later Herzlia), Israel, March 1978-1986.
- Restored to airworthy, Herzlia, 1978-1984.
- Powerplant rebuilt by David Zeuschel/Zeuschel Raging Engines, Sylmar, CA.
- First flight, Herzlia, Feb. 5, 1984.
- Registered as 4X-AIM, Feb. 1984.
Stephen Grey, Geneva, Switzerland, Sep. 30, 1986
Novida AB/Flygexpo, Malmo, Sweden, Oct. 30, 1986-2002.
- Registered as SE-BKG.
- Delivered to Malmo, Dec. 23, 1986.
- Flew as RSAF/Fv26158.
Dukes of Brabant, Eindhoven, Netherlands. (on loan del. Sep. 94)
- Flew as R Neth. East Indies AF "N3-615", 1995.
- Returned to Flygexpo. Flew as RSAF/Fv26158.
The Fighter Collection, Duxford, UK, March. 2002-2003.
- Registered as G-CBNM.

44-63864 as currently owned by Ron Fagen, Minnesota, USA
IAI, Lod airport, surplus for sale, 1960
William P. Lear Jr./Lear Inc., Los Angeles, CA, July 18, 1960.
- delivered Tel Aviv - Athens - Geneva Dec. 1960
William R. Pearce, Fullerton, CA, Dec. 11, 1962.
- Crashed Keflavik, Iceland during ferry flight June 6, 1963. Pilot Roger Gaston Arnoult killed.
- Wreck stored Keflavik, Iceland. Moved to the US in 1989.
Cham S. Gill, Central Point, OR, May. 1991.
- Registered as N42805.
Kenneth A. Hake, Tipton, KS, 1992.
Ron Fagen, Granite Falls, MN Oct. 14, 2005.

As to which of these two P-51s that is the real 44-63864 will probarbly be discussed for many years to come!

T J


Dan Johnson II wrote:
So is there a suggestion here that the "Combat vet " Twilight Tear at Duxford might not in fact be that bird after all?


Let's just say there has been controversy around that a/c since the day Israel Itzhaki "put the keys in the ignition and fired it up"!

T J

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:59 am 
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T J Johansen wrote:
Randy Haskin wrote:
Does anyone else find it interesting that Cham Gill and Ken Hake owned both the "Twilight Tear" airframe AND the N251L wreckage in the 1990s?

:)

That's the registry, or (at first) the Warbirds Directory messing things up. I sent the following note to Scott in December hoping he will clean up this entry in the registry!


Yeah, I know. That was my wink-and-a-nudge at the registry, but I guess I wasn't specific enough.

There are several other airframes with crossed paths like that...the N5151 and N5151T mixup comes to mind right off hand.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:11 am 
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Randy Haskin wrote:
There are several other airframes with crossed paths like that...the N5151 and N5151T mixup comes to mind right off hand.

And some details regarding N200DD and N210D just to mention another!

T J

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