Warbird Information Exchange

Hi.

Again Lex did not go to court on the recovery of his A/C . The charges were dropped before it ever made it to the court room, not to say he didn't spent plenty on a legal defence that he will never recover, nor did it set any type of precidents for any future case. Its always better to find out the facts before you fill in the blanks. Contact Lex for the facts.

Thanks Mike

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IF YOU CAN FIND IT WE CAN FIX IT

My mistake.....

but my point was the same. If it were me I might inform the USAF/NMUSAF of your intentions and see what they say. Better that than to get money invested and B-18 out of the gulch only to get it seized ala Swamp Ghost. This is worst case brainstorming secnario of course and not likely.

As Mike says get the facts first.

Shay
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Semper Fortis

Ahhh, the B-18 on Big Island...serial 36-446 from HQ Sqdn 11th Bomb Group...aircraft numbered 81/11B ...

The Hawaii Antiquity Act is now in effect...

An Environmental Impact Study must also be accomplished...

The US Government and the State of Hawaii must be consulted, altho you MAY own the aircraft since the USAF has relinquished claim on crashes prior to 1961.

Cheers,
David Aiken

I would like to see it go to the Pacific museum.

Chris, welcome to the WIX. I have had some experience with the goverment (Navy and Air Force) and I can confidently state that you own the B-18. If you need any documentation send me a PM or e-mail and I will be glad to forward info.

I have done a couple of helicopter recoveries (one in Hawaii) and I have to completely agree with HELLDIVERS first reply. If you care about preserving it and some qualified group will safely do the recovery, AND give you a tax write-off it is a win/win situation. In any event you are free to do what you wish with YOUR B-18 Bolo!

Any Corsair wrecks on your property?

Pirate Lex
http://www.BrewsterCorsair.com

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An ego is no match for gravity.

I have been getting an amazing amount of information from people through calls, letters, E-mails, and PM's as well as in the forums. I am very impressed by the responsiveness of the warbird community as well as very greatful for the information and knowledge everyone has shared.

Just as an update, the Pearl Harbor Air Museum and a member or two of our LLC are going to fly in to the site on the 25th. Unfortunately I am not in Hawai'i to go along; however I will share any information and photos I receive from this trip.

As much as I would like to see this plane restored to working condition, we are land rich but money poor and could not even afford the recovery, let alone the restoration. Currently the only solid candidate to take on this project is the PHAM, which is also a logical place for it since the plane was based on O'ahu. However we are in no real hurry- it has been there for 65 years, after all. And decision making when a dozen owners have to agree can take considerable thought and discussion. What I personally would like to see done is only 11% of the equation. So if another group or individual has a solid proposal, there is still time to present it. The only thing we have decided is that we do not have any money to put into the plane.

So keep coming with that input!

Thanks again,

Chris

All,

I talked to Gary Miller about this plane while on active duty in August. Gary is the 15th Air Mobility Wing historian. I scanned his entire B-18 photo file while out there.

Anyhow, I work for a large commercial airplane manufacturerer...can you guess who? Well, I asked what that company could do to facilitate recover of said B-18. I am pretty confident that any effort to recover this airplane would get copies of Erection/Maintenance manuals from large airplane company for the B-18.

So if anyone gets serious about this, let me know and I'll forward the request for manuals and get copies printed.

Rich Dann

Is this bird reachable without taking a helecopter? I am going to Hawaii for the first time during thanksgiving. If it is I will hike there and get some photos. I personally would like to see it fly.

As I wrote in another forum-

Personally I have never been to the site of the crash, nor have any of the owners of the property, and I have spent many weeks walking around up there. Our property is very large- 2600+ acres of the most remote, rugged, and inaccessible area in Hawai'i. The terrain is extremely rugged- unbelievably so to someone used to backcountry in the mainland U.S.- and every year hikers are lost attempting to cross the Kohala Mountains. It can take you days to go what looks like a mile on the map, if you manage to do it at all. The USGS maps are totally inaccurate, and unmapped gulches 30 feet wide and a hundred feet deep, hidden by vegetation, are a common hazard. Bottomless volcanic holes, 5-50 feet across and often hidden, are not uncommon. This is one of the wettest places in the world, and flash flooding can isolate you very quickly. There is a reason it took days to get a rescue crew to the site, and that the crew did not try to walk out themselves! And back then there was a trail system the Ditch companies maintained...

The only practical way to access the site is by helicopter, and we absolutely forbid any attempt to walk in. Personally I would have no problem with someone flying into the site, but it is owned by a business and my partners in the past have insisted on a $300 landing fee and proof of insurance from people who have wanted to land on our property. This is actually a small cost compared to chartering a helicopter to take you there at $750 an hour. Your best bet might be to wait until it makes it to the museum- if it does...
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I could go on and on about how difficult the terrain is. Check out the USGS maps of the area- have you ever seen a topo map where 50 or more contour lines join together all over the place into brown stripes? And I don't know how they managed to be so inaccurate- for example, there is a miles long, 200 foot high vertical wall running through the middle of what is shown as the flattest place on the mountain. How could they have missed that?! I don't think there is a more difficult place to reach on the island.

I have spent most of my life hiking in the Kohalas, and with that knowledge I believe I could make it in to the site in two days. It is doubtful someone without that knowledge would make it at all; and they might not ever make it out. I won't bore you with tales of dead hikers, but I will repeat that we no longer allow unescorted hiking on our property, both for liability reasons and for your own safety.

But hey, while you are on the island be sure to check out my home of Waipi'o Valley- at least go to the lookout. This will give you something of a preview of the type of terrain you are dealing with. If you like to hike, hike into the next valley, Waimanu. Imagine doing the hike without the trail. If you are still enthusiastic, climb up the far side of Waimanu and cross a few gulches just for fun. If this is your idea of a great time, like it is mine, let's plan a hike into the plane together!

Chris

sounds like the red tape is prudent.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

I was prety sure it would be hard to get to just thought it was worth asking. Hope this bomber is saved.

Aloha Chris,
You said it very correctly... Those who travel the Rockies have no knowledge of the Hawai'ian jungle. Trained in the Rockies means, if one get disoriented, just follow a stream down hill...yet in Hawai'i that thought leads to death, as you are walking downhill over jungle vines SUDDENLY you walk over a cliff without anything UNDER you...over hundreds of feet of air beneath you!

I have traveled the two ranges of Oahu and they are just as bad. You gave a grave, yet great warning. I would not go solo anywhere in any of Hawai'i's mountains without experienced local climbers.

Oh, the pig hunter said "Zero" but described a "Val" and it turned out to be a P-47 with a red paint mark on it by the Hawaii Sea Frontier to ID the thang as a previously "found" plane! lol

Cheers,
David Aiken, a director: Pearl Harbor History Associates, Inc

Well, anyone from Hawai'i would understand the difficulty.

If you do go to Hawai'i and take a helicopter tour of the Hamakua coastline, most of the pilots know where the plane is located- if the weather is good you may be able to talk them into doing a flyby. Just be sure to go early in the morning before the clouds settle in- once they drop below 3500 feet you won't be able to see it. Can't say I've done the tour, although I've chartered helicopters on a number of occasions, but I think they run about $300.

Another option is to rent a small plane in Hilo, as we did once- I think the hourly for a 4 passenger Cessna with a pilot was $125, compared to $750 for a 4 passenger helicopter (Bell 500?). Oddly hiring the plane and the pilot separately was a lot cheaper than hiring them together for an air tour, even though it was the same plane and pilot. Go figure... So first ask to rent the plane, then ask how much to hire a pilot (if you need one!). Of course the view of the plane will not be as good as the pilot will not like flying low and you go by fast as opposed to hovering. But a whole lot cheaper and a lot of fun.

Chris

Chris--

Thanks for sharing so much information and insight -- and for including us in this ongoing process. You've received a lot of good advice and stirred alot of interest and it seems like you've gone about it all the right way from the very beginning.

I was very glad to hear that the folks from the Pacific Aviation Museum at Pearl Harbor will be undertaking a preliminary survey with some of your partners in the next few days. That evaluation will answer many questions about what is really out there and what is feasible -- removing much of the guess work from your task. I had the pleasure of meeting with Syd Jones (Restoration Director and Acting Curator) and others from PAM on Ford Island last October and was very favorably impressed by their vision, enthusiasm, and knowledge. And as you say, given the aircraft's histroy in Hawaii, I can think of no more fitting place for it to be preserved for future generations.

That said, I recognize that you owe it to yourself and to your partners to explore whatever other options may be available, but frankly I'll be amazed if you receive any other offers. Helldiver already did a great job of running down the list of technical reasons why 36-446 is unlikely ever to take to the air again. Of course, anything is possible given enough money, but realistically it just isn't there. As much as I (and most people on this forum) would like to see a Bolo (and at least one of everything, please) flying once more, we represent only a small fraction of the support needed to keep it going. The type never played a significant role in combat (outside of some success in the early anti-submarine role) and it's rarity alone would never generate enough interest on the airshow cicuit to keep it going.

By way of example, just compare it to the B-23 Dragon, Douglas Aircraft's refinement and follow-up to the B-18. It's also a twin engine pre-war bomber with an undistinguished/non-existant combat record of which only a half dozen or so remain. The thing is, the CAF already owns one that was flying in the 1980s/90s and has since been allowed to fall into disrepair through lack of interest. Another B-23 has languished unsold on E-bay for months with no takers on the $160K reserve price -- and that plane has been sitting intact in a California hangar and not lying on a tropical mountainside for over six decades.

So that leaves static preservation in a museum -- and, as I said before, in my opinion, there is none better suited than the Pacific Aviation Museum. They have a genuine interest in the airplane as it connects to the history of flying in Hawaii (especially as it relates to telling the story of the attack on Pearl Harbor). Plus they have the facilities and expertise on hand to care for it -- and, unlike any other museum, will not be saddled with the transportation costs if a recovery is eventually undertaken. Of course, it would be between you and your partners and the museum to decide what sort of compensation is fair (I certainly can't speak for any of you and I'm not a lawyer). However, I can guess that like most museums, the PAM is chronically short of funds. One option that might be available is an outright donation of the airframe, the highest legimate value of which could then be wriiten off on your taxes (as the museum is an IRS recognized non-profit organization).

Everything above is simply my opinion -- others may agree or disagree. The ultimate decision rests with you and your partners as the current owners of the wreck (I believe F3A-1 is correct when he says the Air Force won't lay claim to it -- given that the plane rests on private property and was lost prior to 1961).

Best of luck and please keep us up-to-date.

I'd like to see it go to the pearl harbor aviation museum as well.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager