Warbird Information Exchange

Awesome archive shot of the goodies along the "Hollywood Row" back there, Chris! Yes, this is indeed the nose and bow turret Ron Sathre acquired many years ago. Not sure when this picture was taken, but there sure are some neat thing there. Ron had mentioned to me years ago that he did a little reasearch and came up with a production or two that utilized the nose section as "set dressing" but my memory has faded to the point I can no longer remember what it was. The varied studio lots had some good stuff at one time - I recall hearing one even had a cockpit section of a Liberator that fell victim to the scrapper in the 1970s, but I suppose that is fodder for yet another message board.

Wonder what that sphere was near the ErCo nose in your picture? Just a week or so ago I helped move one of these turrets on a trailer from one storage yard to the next, and we got some strange looks and finger points as we headed down the road. At a gas station, a curious soul asked us what it was. One of the guys in our party quipped, "It's an early spacecraft - America's answer to Sputnik." He pointed to the seat and the Clarke controller grips and said, "See - that's where the monkey sat!" So much for the company I keep, eh?

Doug, you are correct about the Stells and the -4Y mishap near Safford, Arizona. I think it happened back right about this time in the summer of 1974. T&G Aviation had two Privateers, Charlie 30 and Charlie 50. I was told the Stells had done a drop and were turning back around to make another pass in a canyon when they ran out of altitude in the warm, thin air. Reportedly, the plane was still heavy with retardent and they caught a wintip on some trees. The result was an unfortunate loss to the aerial firefighting community of a skilled pilot and his 20-something son, who had the makings of a successful career in front of him. I don't know about a Tanker 31... but I do remember C 50 and C 30 and I spent many an hour on and inside this airplane in the Arizona heat (as a hanger on, and NOT a tanker pilot, less I leave anyone with that impression). Am looking forward for a visit to LSFM to see how her re-birth is coming. Judging from the pictures I have seen on the web site, their work is first-rate.

But back to C 50.... It's been a number of years since I was last at the crash site. At one time Mr. Sathre had visions of recovering the tail section and restoring what was left to take it to the annual PB4Y-2 crew reunions he was hosting at the time, but for reasons previously discussed this never came to pass.

Haven't heard of the Klamath Lake story but will ask about and see what I can find out about it. Certainly could be true.

Like the comments in this thread as well. I am one of those who'd really like to see a -4Y restored to wartime configuration with the correct P & W powerplants, but not sure if this will ever happen unless someone is willing to dedicate the financial resources necessary to make it happen. The cost to re-engine from the R-2600 QEC would be prohibitive, and from an operational standpoint (horsepower and performance) it would be a step backwards. But then, there are those of us who have this weird quirk for originality, and a boy can always dream, right?

It would be awesome to see one on the airshow circuit painted up as such, or similar!

Couple of WWII Nose Art Images


VPB-116



VPB-108

Pooner,
Thanks for clearing up the story of N7237C. I think 'Tanker 31' must have been Stell's unofficial nickname for it.
Do you know Mark O'Connell? He flew 3739G for Stell a couple of summers in the late sixties.
Thank you for the compliment on Lone Star's 4Y. I spent much of Saturday assembling cowlings on bare #3 and have some real odd bolt head bruises to show for it.
You are right about not retrofitting R1830's to the 4Y. I don't know if any have those still. Even 66304 at NMNA has Cyclones. Lone Star considered it but due to cost, time and especially the trove of R2600's and parts that the H&P auction made available, we stuck with what we had. Lack of available cowling sheet metal was also deemed a major problem. Our maint. chief and museum pres. went to it and now we have a lot of R2600 parts by the stacked pallet full in the ground support hangar. Got a couple of canned engines too I think.
Last weekend was the first time I've worked on the 4Y. Add another one to my 'warbirds worked on' list.

Doug Ratchford

Chris,
How old is that movie lot photo of the airplane pieces?

What do you know about that PBY nose section??? Probably from one of the many that were purchased on the cheap and parted out. Southern California Aircraft Corp. bought a buttload of PBY's in the early fifties including Lone Star's 5A.

Doug Ratchford

Me again,
I just went over to a.net and looked at these. Can anyone explain the design/purpose of the odd looking nose on 59701-N6884C, tanker 127 and 59882-N7962C, tanker 126?

Doug.

Well, good fer ya, Doug! You find a neat airplane to bust your knuckles on. I like your style. If one did a DNA analysis on some of that engine sheet metal - I think the #4 cowling set in particular - you'd find some of 'Pooner's nasty old skin and blood there as well. I do recall one cowling on her that needed a not-so-gentle whacking with a stout rubber hammer that made the sheet metal align with the Dzus hardware and the springs.

I also learned the hard way on this airplane that if changing one of the 56" SC main wheels (complete with brakes and drums and fresh rubber) it's best to not try to catch it if it starts to wobble away from ya.... there's about 800 pounds + of grunt one has to contend with or get outa the way PDQ ... or risk getting flattened. But that's another tale to tell at a later date.

Truthfully I did not remember talk of "Tanker 31" and only knew of them as "30" and "50" respectively but I am not the resident expert... there are others around me who want to wear that crown of thorns, I think. And I do remember Mark being spoken of highly in the -4Y community, such as it is, but that was long ago.

The 2600 combo was well thought out by Gene Powers and crew at H and P, who came up with the brainstorm of the STC that turned our old gals into "Super" status with a FWF change. A smart move back in the day; our salvors here in 'Zona were getting upwards of $8,500 per 1830 powerplant in the 1960s and these were removed directly from the scrapped -4Ys dying by the handfull out at Litchfield NAF across town. (Which this now old fart remembers just vaguely as he was a kid back then... but I do have the old issues of Trade-A-Plane!). Anyway, old Sergio T. said the 2600 QEC's were "the proverbial manna from heaven" as at the time they were plentiful, fresh, powerful AND offered at.... get this... $250 a pop from the aero salvors who were also cutting up TB-25s and TBMs.

That's how he was able to make a go of Charlie 30... when Sergio found her she was a derelict missing engines and instruments up in Prescott, AZ., having been robbed of her 1830s. He picked her up for about $2,500.... and spent several months working (and living) out of his truck there at the airport hanging engines. The rest is history. Good history.

So many good stories to share, and so little space... would bore the poopie out of all the other WIX'ers and Ryan will arrive in PHX later this summer and suspend my account priviledges and make me sit in the fuselage of our Harpoon and sniff the ant bait tank as penance for my sins. But I'll leave you with this.... Serge did say that having the Wrights on the leading edge of the wing there was like having a 5th Pratt out there for power, and when he wanted to this little fireplug of a guy could whip that -4Y around like a fighter (or so I am told, if'n the Feddies are reading this and want to make an issue of ghosts from the past....).

Should someone drunkenly decide to change the Wrights to Pratts, I know of some e-mounts and nice "tin" panels set aside for that very thing. Grin, grin!

I need to call your shop super, as I have a question. Who did the Plexi work on the ErCo nose dome? I think I'd like to have one or two of them and play bubble boy.... really.... either that or serve up a rather large salad in 'em....

Regarding the noses, much of it was whatever could be found to "fit the hole" after dropping the clunky old ErCo ball turret. There's a lot of extra weight up there, and lots ergo o' drag. The birds often got whatever was laying about... and sometimes the oddest things fit (like that Century series aircraft canopy fitted with a lot of sheet metal!).

Some of the H and P birds and a few others were purchased from surplus sales that already had been fitted with US Coast Guard built greenhouses. A fellow who started playing with -4Ys in Prescott, AZ in the early days (Carson Shade) made some pretty nice sheet metal noses to replace the hole left by turret and mounting base, but this was time consuming and by nature expensive.

Sergio and crew lucked out when they found two "D" model greenhouse frames in a junkyard down in Tucson (either AMCEP or Hamilton Aircraft cast-offs). They put a measure tape to 'em, figured out by sheer luck they were a bolt-on, bought 'em and took 'em home. Serge told me a story of softening pieces of Plexiglas in the oven at home with his buddies while drinking beer.... and getting a little too well "internally lubricated" during the process and smoking out the house with burning plastic fumes.

Now that's shadetree aviation at its best, baby!

Pooner & Canso,

The photo was taken in 1986 on the studio tour from the tram as it passed by the relics. Other photos show an F-102 cockpit and an Enola Gay-marked B-29 nose (mockup?) as well as the Amazing Stories B-17 fuselage mockup. I imagine the PBY nose was the one used in the movie Midway for cockpit shots as both a Catalina and an Emily

_________________

All right, Mister Dorfmann, start pullin'!
Pilot: "Flap switch works hard in down position."
Mechanic: "Flap switch checked OK. Pilot needs more P.T." - Flight report, TB-17G 42-102875 (Hobbs AAF)

Canso, If your working on the 4Y then could you possibly supply us with pictures of your work? Im always fascinasted with 24's and 4Y's, and especially ones that are being restored to fly! I havent found many pics of the restoration of your bird, so im always eager to see whats going on in the Lone Star state.

Also, what other 4Y's are being restored for flight? The only examples I could come up with...LSFM, Yanks, private owner in AZ?

Here's another showing a PB4Y-2, PB4Y-1, and a PV-1

Interested in seeing any pictures of the two Privateers together at TOM.

well believe it or not, I didnt get a good picture of the two..slipped my mine in the heat of the moment.

This was the only one I got..I had planned to swing back around and get a shot of the noses..but got distracted by the cobra and huey's flying and never made it back



Sean

Cool shot! But to be honest, someone has GOT to get on it and rebuild the waist turret/bubbles on those birds - it just looks goofy to have those huge windows IMHO.

Tom P.

I got to the Privateers on Sunday just as the flying one was being towed out to the flightline. I was hoping to get some more detailed pics and shots of the pair together after she landed...but she never did. They headed out rifht after the flybys. I can't really complain to much. It was my own fault for getting there late..besides, I got to see her fly, which was the important part.

SN