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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:24 pm 
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Boy, it sure does. It is in the military authorization bill for 2005 and is Title 14 of the new law. It applies to any aircraft owned by the U.S. government when it crashed.

What is their problem?

Here is a link: http://www.ngb.army.mil/ll/reports/05/hr4200(conf).pdf

It's buried deep in the bill.


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 Post subject: Scary Law
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:30 pm 
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Owned by the U.S. government...that's the citizenry...us?....right???

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:50 pm 
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the americans crashed a lot of planes in my country, and if i want to recover one i will.

i dont recognise the 'authority' of stupid laws like these.

i wouldnt bother going to court or even talking to them.

they cant leave something on my land for 60 years then claim they still want it. what happened to commen sense up there? :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:12 pm 
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The bastards are flat out of control! :evil:

Some of the major warbird players need to take this as a MAJOR wake up call. There are so many mix-matched and swapped components on these planes that the NHC could effectively obliterate the warbird market if they carried out their search on any technical level at all. There are more than a few owners out there (some of them unaware) that could easily get sideswiped by this - guys who possibly have no clue that their planes are maquerading as something other than what they are.

Judging from the NHC's prior intent with Cralley of "seeking the return of the airplane, the cost of returning it and compensation for any damage to or alteration of the aircraft", this should serve as fair warning to an unprecedented upset.

Logically, the idea of their putting a halt to recoveries strikes me as FAR more realistic and enforcable than does the idea of reclaiming every plane that might have a hiccup in its verifiable history. Seems like the burden of proof would fall to the Navy, and not to the aircraft owner.

I've about had it with the swelling iron fist of Big Government. The military needs to get wise to the fact that a free society is not governed under the same guidelines as those who live within the confines of the active military. We've apparently got hardline "lifers" from the armed forces who mistakenly believe that the common citizen falls at the foot of their chain of command.

You ABANDONED your junk! You left items to rot that you have NO interest in. Other than using them as a catalyst to express your self-righteous behavior, the majority of these items would STILL not be worth the thought you give to shining your shoes in the morning. I can understand the idea of rigorous regulation in regard to recoveries, but a blanket ban, PLUS retalitory and systematic attacks against anyone who might own a chunk of aircraft they can't identify goes far beyond the pale of OBTUSE!

If such a bill passes, it carries all the proper baggage to set a large portion of the warbird market on its ear. The perverted Navy policy makers should NEVER be allowed the kind of power they are asking for. It's a damned disgrace against their own legacy, and they're apparently too blinded by one-upmanship and bitter pride (& greed) for those facts to be self-evident. :evil:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:24 pm 
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That is Horrible, underhanded and just plain Dirty. It is extremely sad that those responsible can sleep at night knowing that they are purpously trying screw people over. It is really time for some people to retire or step down. The NHC ultimately, like any other Federal components, work for the people. It seems to me that they have lost their way and are not operating with the People's best interests at heart. This must not come to pass. Also I wonder what the USAF's reaction will be, if any, to the Navy claiming imminent domain over USAF property below the waves? A side note. Would that mean that if the USAF or NMUSAF wanted to recover some piece of USAF property from the water that they would have to request permission from the U.S. Navy? This all seems irregular and inappropriate. I hope this all gets worked out.

Shay


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:31 pm 
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We all need to wakeup and smell what is coming down the pipeline. It is just one more way that the Government is intruding into our everyday lives where and when they don't need too be. It is time to call, write and E-mail Congress and the President. Let then hear you. I know there are a bunch of Vets here, go to the local VFW's and American Legions and get things going. Rob has been pushing us for a while to do this, FOR a reason.


These morons don't realize the recruitment tool they are killing. Next they will be calling us all back to into the military, to protect WHAT?
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:38 pm 
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To save you some digging, here is the relavant title of the bill

Code:
   TITLE XIV SUNKEN MILITARY CRAFT

SEC. 1401. PRESERVATION OF TITLE TO SUNKEN MILITARY CRAFT AND ASSOCIATED
CONTENTS.

Right, title, and interest of the United States in and to any United
States sunken military craft

   (1) shall not be extinguished except by an express
   divestiture of title by the United States; and

   (2) shall not be extinguished by the passage of
   time, regardless of when the sunken military craft
   sank.

SEC. 1402. PROHIBITIONS.

   (a) UNAUTHORIZED ACTIVITIES DIRECTED AT
   SUNKEN MILITARY CRAFT.No person shall engage in
   or attempt to engage in any activity directed at a sunken
   military craft that disturbs, removes, or injures any sunken
   military craft, except

      (1) as authorized by a permit under this title;

      (2) as authorized by regulations issued under
      this title; or

      (3) as otherwise authorized law.

   (b) POSSESSION OF SUNKEN MILITARY CRAFT.No
   person may possess, disturb, remove, or injure any sunken
   military craft in violation of

      (1) this section; or

      (2) any prohibition, rule, regulation, ordinance,
      or permit that applies under any other applicable
      law.

   (c) LIMITATIONS ON APPLICATION.

      (1) ACTIONS BY UNITED STATES.This section
      shall not apply to actions taken by, or at the direction
      of, the United States.

      (2) FOREIGN PERSONS.This section shall not
      apply to any action by a person who is not a citizen,
      national, or resident alien of the United States, except
      in accordance with

         (A) generally recognized principles of
         international law;

         (B) an agreement between the United
         States and the foreign country of which the
         person is a citizen; or

         (C) in the case of an individual who is a
         crew member or other individual on a foreign
         vessel or foreign aircraft, an agreement between
         the United States and the flag of the foreign
         vessel or aircraft that applies to the individual.

         (3) LOAN OF SUNKEN MILITARY CRAFT.This
         section does not prohibit the loan of United States
         sunken military craft in accordance with regulations
         issued by the Secretary concerned.

SEC. 1403. PERMITS.

   (a) IN GENERAL.The Secretary concerned may issue a permit authorizing
   a person to engage in an activity otherwise prohibited by section
   1402 with respect to a United States sunken military craft, for
   archaeological, historical, or educational purposes, in accordance
   with regulations issued by such Secretary that implement this section.

   (b) CONSISTENCY WITH OTHER LAWS.The Secretary concerned shall require
   that any activity carried out under a permit issued by such Secretary
   under this section must be consistent with all requirements and
   restrictions that apply under any other provision of Federal law.

   (c) CONSULTATION.In carrying out this section (including the issuance
   after the date of the enactment of this Act of regulations implementing
    this section), the Secretary concerned shall consult with the head of
   each Federal agency having authority under law with respect to
   activities directed at sunken military craft or the locations of such
   craft.

   (d) APPLICATION TO FOREIGN CRAFT.At the request of any foreign State,
   the Secretary of the Navy, in consultation with the Secretary of State,
    may carry out this section (including regulations promulgated pursuant
   to this section) with respect to any foreign sunken military craft of
   that foreign State located in United States waters.

SEC. 1404. PENALTIES.

   (a) IN GENERAL.Any person who violates this title, or any regulation
   or permit issued under this title, shall be liable to the United
   States for a civil penalty under this section.

   (b) ASSESSMENT AND AMOUNT.The Secretary concerned may assess a civil
   penalty under this section, after notice and an opportunity for a
   hearing, of not more than $100,000 for each violation.

   (c) CONTINUING VIOLATIONS.Each day of a continued violation of this
   title or a regulation or permit issued under this title shall
   constitute a separate violation for purposes of this section.

   (d) IN REM LIABILITY.A vessel used to violate this title shall be
   liable in rem for a penalty under this section such violation.

   (e) OTHER RELIEF.If the Secretary concerned determines that there is
   an imminent risk of disturbance of, removal of, or injury to any
   sunken military craft, or that there has been actual disturbance of,
   removal of, or injury to a sunken military craft, the Attorney
   General, upon request of the Secretary concerned, may seek such relief
   as may be necessary to abate such risk or actual disturbance, removal,
   or injury and to return or restore the sunken military craft. The
   district courts of the United States shall have jurisdiction in such
   a case to order such relief as the public interest and the equities
   of the case may require.

   (f) LIMITATIONS.An action to enforce a violation of section 1402 or
   any regulation or permit issued under this title may not be brought
   more than 8 years after the date on which

      (1) all facts material to the right of action are known or
      should have been known by the Secretary concerned; and

      (2) the defendant is subject to the jurisdiction of the
      appropriate district court of the United States or
      administrative forum.

SEC. 1405. LIABILITY FOR DAMAGES.

   (a) IN GENERAL.Any person who engages in an activity in violation of
   section 1402 or any regulation or permit issued under this title that
   disturbs, removes, or injures any United States sunken military craft
   shall pay the United States enforcement costs and damages resulting
   from such disturbance, removal, or injury.

   (b) INCLUDED DAMAGES.Damages referred to in subsection (a) may include

      (1) the reasonable costs incurred in storage, restoration,
      care, maintenance, conservation, and curation of any sunken
      military craft that is disturbed, removed, or injured in
      violation of section 1402 or any regulation or permit issued
      under this title; and

      (2) the cost of retrieving, from the site where the sunken
      military craft was disturbed, removed, or injured, any
      information of an archaeological, historical, or cultural
      nature.

SEC. 1406. RELATIONSHIP TO OTHER LAWS.

   (a) IN GENERAL.Except to the extent that an activity is undertaken
   as a subterfuge for activities prohibited by this title, nothing in
   this title is intended to affect

      (1) any activity that is not directed at a sunken
      military craft; or

      (2) the traditional high seas freedoms of navigation, including

         (A) the laying of submarine cables and pipelines;

         (B) operation of vessels;

         (C) fishing; or

         (D) other internationally lawful uses of the sea
         related to such freedoms.

   (b) INTERNATIONAL LAW.This title and any regulations implementing this
   title shall be applied in accordance with generally recognized
   principles of international law and in accordance with the treaties,
   conventions, and other agreements to which the United States is a party.
   (c) LAW OF FINDS.The law of finds shall not apply to

      (1) any United States sunken military craft, wherever
      located; or

      (2) any foreign sunken military craft located in United
      States waters.

   (d) LAW OF SALVAGE.No salvage rights or awards shall be granted with
   respect to

      (1) any United States sunken military craft without the
      express permission of the United States; or

      (2) any foreign sunken military craft located in United
      States waters without the express permission of the relevant
      foreign state.

   (e) LAW OF CAPTURE OR PRIZE.Nothing in this title is intended to alter
   the international law of capture or prize with respect to sunken
   military craft

   (f) LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.Nothing in sections 4281 through 4287 and
   4289 of the Revised Statutes (46 U.S.C. App. 181 et seq.) or section 3
   of the Act of February 13, 1893 (chapter 105; 27 Stat. 445; 46 U.S.C. 
   App. 192), shall limit the liability of any person under this section.

   (g) AUTHORITIES OF THE COMMANDANT OF THE COAST GUARD.Nothing in this
   title is intended to preclude or limit the application of any other
   law enforcement authorities of the Commandant of the Coast Guard.

   (h) PRIOR DELEGATIONS, AUTHORIZATIONS, AND RELATED REGULATIONS.Nothing
   in this title shall invalidate any prior delegation, authorization, or
   related regulation that is consistent with this title.

   (i) CRIMINAL LAW.Nothing in this title is intended to prevent the
   United States from pursuing criminal sanctions for plundering of
   wrecks, larceny of Government property, or violation of any applicable
   criminal law.

SEC. 1407. ENCOURAGEMENT OF AGREEMENTS WITH FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

   The Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Defense is
   encouraged to negotiate and conclude bilateral and multilateral
   agreements with foreign countries with regard to sunken military craft
   consistent with this title.

SEC. 1408. DEFINITIONS.

   In this title:

      (1) ASSOCIATED CONTENTS.The term "associated contents" means

         (A) the equipment, cargo, and contents of a sunken
         military craft that are within its debris field; and

         (B) the remains and personal effects of the crew and
         passengers of a sunken military craft that are within
         its debris field.

      (2) SECRETARY CONCERNED.The term "Secretary concerned" means

         (A) subject to subparagraph (B), the Secretary of a
         military department; and

         (B) in the case of a Coast Guard vessel, the Secretary
         of the Department in which the Coast Guard is operating.

      (3) SUNKEN MILITARY CRAFT.The term "sunken military craft"   
      means all or any portion of

         (A) any sunken warship, naval auxiliary, or other
         vessel that was owned operated by a government on
         military noncommercial service when it sank;

         (B) any sunken military aircraft or military spacecraft
         that was owned or operated by a government when it
         sank; and

         (C) the associated contents of a craft referred to in
         subparagraph (A) or (B),

      if title thereto has not been abandoned or transferred by the
      government concerned.

      (4) UNITED STATES CONTIGUOUS ZONE.The term "United States
      contiguous zone" means the contiguous zone of the United
      States under Presidential Proclamation 7219, dated September
      2, 1999.

      (5) UNITED STATES INTERNAL WATERS.The term "United States
      internal waters" means all waters of the United States on the
      landward side of the baseline from which the breadth of the
      United States territorial sea is measured.

      (6) UNITED STATES TERRITORIAL SEA.The term "United States
      territorial sea" means the waters of the United States
      territorial sea under Presidential Proclamation 5928, dated
      December 27, 1988

      (7) UNITED STATES WATERS.The term "United States waters"
      means United States internal waters, the United States
      territorial sea, and the United States zone.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:39 pm 
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Rob Mears wrote:
The bastards are flat out of control! :evil:

Seems like the burden of proof would fall to the Navy, and not to the aircraft owner.

:evil:


Remember who you are dealing with, the Government! THEY ARE THE LAW. It flexes and bends how every they want it too.

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 Post subject: Navy Recall?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:54 pm 
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I guess this would affect the B-29's from China Lake as they were Navy property at the time??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:04 pm 
Just back from China! What a armpit. The goverment isn't going to be happy untill we are working to just pay the rent living like stacked chickens like they do in bejing


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:29 pm 
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TimApNy wrote:
Rob Mears wrote:
The bastards are flat out of control! :evil:

Seems like the burden of proof would fall to the Navy, and not to the aircraft owner.

:evil:


Remember who you are dealing with, the Government! THEY ARE THE LAW. It flexes and bends how every they want it too.



yes they are the LAW they are the LAW in AMERICA, anything they left downunder is mine & if they dont like it they can kiss my ass :)

i love american laws where they think they hold authority over the whole world, like pre-emptive "terrorist strikes" ect (they should start in washington)

if a monster like america cant handle a small country like iraq i dont like thier chances taking stuff all over the world.

no other countrys will recognise this stupid law, so move your birds to canada! :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:41 pm 
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Nothing surprises me anymore where the government is concerned :evil:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:52 pm 
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now why can I see the CAC built mustangs over in america suddenly reverting to aussie builder's numbers if that sort of things starts taking effect?

and/or a lot of warbirds suddenly taking on something akin to panamanian registry?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:00 pm 
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I can't see how this would apply to any aircraft recovered in the past(if it remains in the final version of the act). Attempting to apply such a law to past recoveries where a title has been legally obtained is a clear violation of Article I, Section 9, Clause 3 of the US Constitution; "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.".

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:11 pm 
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it would be against our constitution to let a forign land have any power here, we have a few sites which are classed as US SOIL that the US bought from us, apart from that they cant do anything.

the bill would never pass the australian senate and if it did the prime minister would be fired by the GG and the bill repealed. so despite what the useless fat arrogent bastards in washington think they cant do anything here.

im about to recover an american plane, and lets see what happens when i do.

the us government doesnt stand a chance in taking my plane.

my country may sign a treaty with america which would be a way they wouldnt have to legislate it, but ultimatly i would win hands down in court.

:)


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