Warbird Information Exchange

Tarras Lyssenko sent me the address for his new webpage. He and Allan Olson operate A&T Recovery which as some of you know is the outfit that recovered all of the Dauntlesses, Wildcats, Avengers and other warbirds from Lake Michigan.

They've never had a website before, so this will be very interesting to most of you. There are a number of very large color photos of some of the recoveries. Lots of other historically significant info on the Great Lakes aircraft carriers as well.

Check it out!

http://www.atrecovery.com/

_________________
Rob Mears
'Surviving Corsairs' Historian
robcmears@yahoo.com
http://www.robmears.com

Rob

Great site...... hopefully these guys will be employed to bring up the only Corsair and Hellcat in the lake !

Dave

It even features a link to page dedicated to the Man that is driving force behind the Navy Museum's Policy on aircraft recovery. Too bad Bob's e-mail address is missing so we could let him know what we think of the job he is doing....

http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/182938-1.html

I really don't think Rasmussen is the driving force behind the
USN policy on wreck recovery. I think that comes from Naval
Historical in Washington.

Before anyone takes him to task take a walk through that museum.
Then look at some photos of what is was like before he took over.
(I have some if you need any.) The place has become one of the
leading museums in the world on his watch. Now I'm not saying he
did it by himself nor am I saying I agree with every decision and
policy he has, but he is the one constant there for the last twenty
years or so. Foundation members have come and gone, there have
been personel changes, but Raz in the one at the top and I think he's
done a darn fine job.

One man's opinion.

Owen

The information I have is the actions taken against Cralley and others orginated with him and his office. Anyone else heard it this way??

I was under the impression that the Navy's policy regarding abandoned aircraft and persecution of those who recover them came from him directly. Is this not the case?

_________________
Dan Johnson

I haven't sat in on budget meetings or anything
like that but I imagine DoD sets a budget and
Raz and Macon decide how it's spent. Then there
is the money from the Foundation that is equally
important.

The outside aircraft are exposed to the elements.
Since NAS Pensacola is pretty much a barrier island
this is an unavoidable problem. The Lake Birds that
were outside are now stored in a building. Next
fall ground is to be broken on another expansion of
the museum. If memory serves it is to be 300,000
square feet and carries a price tag of $36 million.
Many of the currently outside aircraft will be inside
when it is completed including the Coronado.

If the recovery policy originates in Pensacola then
ask yourself why did they go after, so vigorously, what
was purported to be the ship's bell from CSS Alabama.
It's been several years and I don't recall all the details
but the navy went after a guy who had the bell real
hard. Subsequently the real bell was found by divers
exploring the wreck site off Cherborg thus exposing
the first one as a hoax. I have often wondered what
happened to the bell and the poor fellow who had it.
Pensacola would have no use for such an artifact but
Naval Historical sure would.

As I stated earlier I don't agree with everything Raz
has ever done. If you really believe that he "hasn't
done squat for the museum" then you're the one who
needs to walk around there more often. You are en-
titled to your opinion, but we will have to agree to disagree
on that point.

Owen

That's a neat connection you have with the P5M. I'd like to
hear more about both it and your dad one day. None of
the museum aircraft are in my dad's logbook but maybe
one day when some more Lake Birds are raised....

I appreciate the update on the CSS Alabama bell story.
As I said I have often wondered the disposition of the
case.

Tell me more about the money for the expansion being
put on hold. That is not DoD money. It was raised by
the Foundation which is a private entity.

I am most fortunate in that I live in the area and am
able to get over there quite often. When I was small
my dad used to take me to the original building which
was a temporary WWII barracks. Back then they had
a lot of models and photos, and about five planes.
Perhaps that is why I have an appreciation of how it
has grown, expanded, and become the magical place
that it is today.

Every year in May they host the Naval Aviation Symposium.
Subjects are picked and panelists are invited that participated
in the events. There is a discussion led by a moderator with
Q&A from the audience near the end. There are also social
events where you can talk with the panelists. It is a rare
opportunity for an average history buff to meet and talk
with the men who made history. Past subjects have in-
cluded Midway, the Turkey Shoot, the AVG, Aces, test pilots,
the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, and Shuttle astronauts, the
Blacksheep, and the list goes on and on. Over the years
I have been privilidged to meet and talk with buys like
Joe Foss, Dave McCampbell, Jeff DeBlanc, Bob Galer, Dick
Best, Bill Esders, Alan Shepard, Neil Armstrong, Jim Lovell,
Gene Cernan, Bill Leonard, Hal Buell, Bert Earnest, Jim
Stockdale, Randy Cunningham and Willy Driscoll. The
list goes on. So these guys do a lot of good for perpetuating
and preserving history apart from aircraft recovery.

I've been to the NavOps board and I've read the posts.
I just have a problem with some of the hostility shown
in many of the posts. NMNA and the people who run it
do a lot of good. I try and get over there at least once
a month and the place just gets better and better. In
the past couple of years they've added the cutaway
PBY, a MiG-15, a display dedicated to the Korean War
guys, and they now have rotating displays of personal
memorabilia. Before that they added SBD Bu2106 which
flew combat at Midway, the only SB2U, and an F4F-3
from Lake Michigan. Future plams call for an expanded
WWI exhibit with a ready room type shack and uniformed
figures. They are always changing something and im-
proving things so the visitor will always have something
new to see.

Owen

Hi Owen,

It's great to hear how passionate you are about old aircraft. I finally got the chance to see the NMNA in 2001, and I do not hesitate to agree with you that it is a fantastic collection of airframes; one that has certainly improved over the years. I must express disappointment with a few of the displays; At the time which included an unrestored Lake Michigan F4F in a Cactus Air Force display (Poor Wildcat looked like Swiss cheese the sheet metal had so much rot on it), and the P-40C was a major disappointment also (including the large, domed sheet metal screws, instead of dzus, holding the cowling together). Other restorations were exemplary (the Banshee and Vindicator come to mind).

I guess I personally lean more towards Rob's perspective (although not quite as vehemently) when one examines the way in which the museum exhibits came to be. For example, the means by which the NMNA went about putting the complete SBD together (which you described in your last post) was by recovering several of the type from Lake Michigan, pulling together the usable pieces from each airframe, and leaving the remains (basically to rot). In my mind (and granted, this is just one opinion), creating a STATIC display in this manner is maverick and inexcusable. Certainly the Navy has enough metal bashers in its employ to fashion pieces for a display bird and make the surplus pieces (even at auction) available for the private market.

Owen: I offer no disrespect when I ask this question, but in your opinion just how many aircraft of one type does a museum truly need to sufficiently represent the type in a historical sense? When I visited in 2001, I counted no fewer than five Wildcats on display inside the museum. I know that the NMNA has at least another five airframes in its possession in storage. May I be permitted to hypothetically ask Mr. Rasmussen, "Why?" I honestly don't know the answer. One speculated response has been, "So we can use them for trade bait in case we find someone with something we want." Is this, however, the modus operandi of an organization looking to improve the aircraft preservation movement at large, or rather one that has a more self-serving agenda?

The tactics employed just recently by the NHC with the Brewster Corsair remains in Minnesota are testimony to the means repeatedly employed by the Navy to get what they want: intimidation...pure and simple (The refrain includes names like "Quonset", "Champlin", etc.). It's true, Lex Cralley gets to restore the remains. The problem is that it took a session of the US Congress and a personal directive from the Secretary of the Navy to "call off the hounds" of the NHC (Doesn't feel much like government "by the people...for the people" does it?).

Yes, IMO the collection at NMNA is quite nice. No, IMO the means by which the NHC and NMNA have operated to acquire several of those displays has not always been quite so nice. Both the NHC and the NMNA are an immediate detriment to the flying warbird community.

Sorry for the length, everyone. Too late at night and too much rum.

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

My goodness, so many points to address.....

Dan,
I agree with your thoughts on the P-40. It was restored
by a firm in Georgia. They could have done a better job.
After that and some disappointing sublet on one of the SBD
projects I have not heard of anything else being farmed out.
The FM-2 in the Guadalcanal exhibit is pretty much as it
came from Lake Michigan.

I disagree with you about 2106 being made up from sev-
eral airframes. I watched them put that bird together and
take it apart for the better part of ten years. They were
very careful not to mix parts up. Each piece had a metal
disc with "2106" on it. The other birds were done the same
way. They did have some new dive brakes fabricated bec-
ause the original ones were too badly damaged. They used
the rudder from one of the other planes for a while but the
original is now back in position. The reason was because
they had difficulty getting the paint right. On the photo of
2106 at Midway the red/white stripes are showing through
the hastily applied blue. It took many tried to get it right
but it is now perfect, reinstalled, and looks just as it did
in June 1942. This is one example of the menghts they go
to to "get it right".

The other Lake Birds are stored in a brick building not
being left to rot.

To a guy whose dad flew Wildcats, Dauntlesses, etc. I
guess you can never have too many. But that is a bit
of a prejudiced opinion.

There are a number of Lake Birds around the country.
I believe two or three Wildcats are flying. The SBD with
#25 on the side is at Battleship Park in Mobile. There
is a Wildcat at O'Hare Airport in Chicago to honor Butch
O'Hare. One day there will be an SBD at Midway Airport.
I don't know the whereabouts of all of them but there
is a section on NMNA's site that lists aircraft out on loan.

A few years ago I read an article that listed the budget
for NASM, Wright-Patt, and NMNA. Suffice it to say that
NMNA was a fraction of the others. The term "shoestring"
comes to mind. So they are in the position of having to
do more with less. Now what follows is MY OPINION.

First the Foundation raises money in the private sector to
support the museum. They also pay some staff members.

Second the Volunteer organization. There are between
300 and 400 volunteers (depending on the snowbirds).
Pensacola is full of retired military so there is a huge
pool who have both knowledge and interest. Volunteers
do restoration, give tours, look up info in the library, pro-
vide security, drive the busses for the outside tours, etc.
It would take a whole pile of money to do what the vol-
unteers do for free.

Third are the Lake Birds. We all know what warbirds are
worth today. Taken as a whole they represent a lot of
money. The museum made the deals with the salvors
to preform the work in exchange for some of the planes.
The other planes might be used for trade or barter one
day. Recently NASM reclaimed their SB2C from NMNA
for an exhibit honoring Don Engen. They are also going
to take the Jenny, the Sparrowhawk, and the airship
car. Now I didn't care for that course of action but they
are NASM's planes. So NMNA has holes in their collection.
The Jenny might not be too hard to replace, there aren't
a lot of Helldivers around and they ain't building Sparrow-
hawks anymore. What would be wrong with using some
of those airplanes to swap and trade? To me it would
be a lot easier that raising cash to buy replacements.

I too cringed at the Cralley/Corsair situation, but I do
not believe that originated from Pensacola. Also I have
not heard of Kevin Smith, whose Helldiver is for sale,
having any trouble with Pensacola.

Rob,
I can't speak to the problem of your proposed
trade, but I suspect there may have been more to
it. I've proposed a couple of trades myself over the
years and been turned down. I can say that a friend
just got his trade with Naval Historical approved a
couple of weeks ago. It only took eight years! I
have seen the paperwork involved and it is unbelievable.

OK fellas, your turn....

Owen

Could I hear a little more about the addition
being put on hold? I'm real curious about that.

Hi Owen, just out of curiosity, are you free to divulge what this completed deal is that your friend has done over the last 8 years?

_________________
Jeff

Jeff, I think I'll keep that confidential.

Col,
You must have some pretty good sources. I must
say I am impressed with your breadth of your know-
ledge. I also have a few that have proven very rel-
iable in the past.
I think the future will reveal which of us is right
about the new NMNA addition and a couple of other
points. As I often say, "Time will tell".
I am familar with the C-130 flap, guys named
Skinazi (sp?), Champlin, and Stafford. I remember
when NMNA was investigated extensively. All I can
say is that the principals with whom you have so
much trouble are still in place. There is no way in
the world that they could have survived if they had
dirty hands. There were a lot of folks looking at them.
You are correct that Kevin has title to his SB2C from
the NASM. The point I was trying to make is that the
USN is not going after it in an intimidating manner.
They accept the fact that it is his.
It is interesting to note that you accept the fact that
NASM owns the planes it reclaimed from NMNA. How is
it that you so vehemently disagree with NMNA keeping
their Lake Birds for future disposition (whether it be
eventual restoration and loan out or trade purposes)?
I have difficulty resolving that.
The trades I proposed did not involve money either.
It involved an artifact swap. I was just told straight out
what I was offering was not worth the paperwork. I was
not pleased but I didn't take it personally. They have the
right to turn either of us down. I have been offered trades
by other collectors and turned some of them down. My
point is that they have no obligation to either of us to
accept a trade.
The Buffalo that you mention was, I believe, a Finnish
bird. It was recovered in Russia. I am interested in your
statement that active duty USN will stop any transfer of
P-3s. Haven't some already been transferred to other
countries? In addition the the Lake Birds in private hands
you mention I believe there is also an FM-1 that was traded.
At the time this surprised me as the type was so rare.
There is no one that wants to see a TBD come up more
than I do. I remember an afternoon in Bill Esders living
room in 1992 when he showed me the video of it. It will
bother me till the day I die that both Bill and George Gay
died without seeing it. I continue to hope it will happen
some day. Every time I put my hand on the canopy frame
of Bu0353 I feel the ghosts of those guys who died at
Midway so we can be free. It is very emotional for me.
I would just add that Bill Esders died in 1994 as the last
of the Midway TBD pilots. I was at his funeral and Raz
was one of his pallbearers. If Raz was good enough
for Bill he's good enough for me.
I think on some levels you and I have a lot in common.
We could probably have enjoyed a few beers together at
Trader Jon's. Let me know the next time you head down
this way. Maybe we can explore the things we agree on
instead of where we differ.

Blue skies,
Owen

P.S. There is a sign on the tool box of a guy I work
with. It says, "If you don't have an open mind keep
your mouth shut" I promise to keep an open mind.

Rob,

I take your point about the relative importance of my artifact
trade offer versus your offer the location of their #1 desirable
aircraft.

I have trouble with your point regarding duplicate aircraft in
the collection. While NASM may well have a single example
of each bird Wright-Patt certainly has duplicates. I wouldn't
want to put a number on their B-17s, B-29s, or P51s but I bet
it's up there. I have seen them on loan around the country
at other museums much as NMNA has birds at Battleship Park,
Patriots Point, the Intrepid, and Lex, the Hornet, and so on. I
just don't see your logic here.

Blue skies,
Owen