Long Term Future of Warbirds

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Sun May 30, 2004 6:14 pm

As sad as it is ruthlessly true, our WWII veterans will not be around in thirty years. They are a driving force in the Warbird movement and museums around the world.

While the future of single engine warbirds are secure as long as they can be legally flown. The future of multi-engined aircraft is less so. I'm curious to know what percentage of the movement is under 50. I know most of us here are between 30-60 with exceptions on either end but what about the rest of the organizations and such. I think recruiting the young is a definate need for the future to be secure. Opinions?

C170BDan · **Posted:** Sun May 30, 2004 6:37 pm

Well... I am 30 and have been involved with Warbirds for about 15 years. Mainly as an enthusiast but am building tailwheel time to fly them in the not to distant future. Last weekend I visited the West Houston CAF Open House and met a couple of younger guys that were involved with that group. It was great to see them given rides in the T6, N3N and Twin Beech! (I was one that was able to ride and fly from the left seat in the Twin Beech! See photo below!) I can't say I have seen alot of young people but I do see some. The one thing that really made a difference in my excitement for Warbirds was a friend of mine that I met about 15 years ago who greeted me on the ramp at an airshow... took me in the cockpit of several Warbirds and has kept in touch with me ever since. Someone else might have a similar experience but I hope that type of thing is still happening.

I tip my hat to all those Warbird owners and pilots out there that encourage the younger crowd by giving rides and showing their aircraft!

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Sun May 30, 2004 7:07 pm

Maybe we can see about fundraising to earn money to help offset costs of warbird owners willing to fly kids. And maybe we can organize essay contest at a local school with the winner getting to fly or something similar.

I am working on creating the WIX into a non-profit and once thats done we should look into these educational type things.

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11281

Scott WRG Editor wrote:

I'm curious to know what percentage of the movement is under 50. I know most of us here are between 30-60 with exceptions on either end but what about the rest of the organizations and such. I think recruiting the young is a definate need for the future to be secure. Opinions?

Well, there was the '70's Steve Hinton era of "Chino Kids," then the '80's version that I was involved in, and now the Steve Jr. era is beginning. I think there was virtually no movement until the early '70's (CAF was around, but they were mostly regional), and it has been growing like gangbusters ever since. Look at the air tours with the bombers (Collings & EAA) and now the POF tour in its second year.

What was a hobby for rich folks has now turned into big business.

In any case, we can't force people into aviation. If they aren't interested in aircraft at all, they won't go to the airport to get that free Young Eagles flight!

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Sun May 30, 2004 8:34 pm

bdk wrote:

In any case, we can't force people into aviation. If they aren't interested in aircraft at all, they won't go to the airport to get that free Young Eagles flight!

True, but we could work at getting the word out about exsisting programs and maybe work on areas where they weren't available. When I was in school there was nothing like this. Maybe we could work on expanding the programs to other areas/regions that don't have a big warbird presense.

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11281

Scott WRG Editor wrote:

True, but we could work at getting the word out about exsisting programs and maybe work on areas where they weren't available. When I was in school there was nothing like this. Maybe we could work on expanding the programs to other areas/regions that don't have a big warbird presense.

Where did you first learn about warbirds? I had only made car models until a friend got me interested in warbird models as a freshman in high school and I was hooked. Maybe you need to convince the model companies to put WIX.org flyers in their model kits? You need to get modelers to realize that not only are these aircraft are still around but that people are needed to rebuild and fly them. Approach it from the angle of the airplane being a full size model kit for when they grow up.

Forgotten Field · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2004 9:36 am

I love spending time with the veterans and listening to them. One of my mentor's (when I was in the military) was the Company Commander of Co F 175th Infantry 29th Division at D-day. He spent a lot of time with me giving me lots of practical advice about life and family in general. When I try to act as a mentor at the ripe old age of 36, I think of our times and a few things seem to ring true (and I think are applicable here)

1. He always listened carefully to me. Sometimes, we are so excited about what we are interested in that we spend time overwhelming people with what we know and love- to our own detriment. Listen, listen, listen...

2. I was always invited to assist him with his projects. Even though I didn't have the skills to do what he was doing, he still welcomed me into his research (which was about the 29th Division in WWII). I don't advocate putting a novice right on mag timing on your 1820, but give them a purchase point they can handle, and hopefully, their interest will grow.

3. We spent as much time socially as we did working. This is one thing I am bad at. I love to work, work, work.... And there aren't a lot of people that will spend as much time with me working on things. I can easily occupy a 16 hour day with anything I do, be it studying, banging sheet metal, or moving parts around (I have a lot of parts), and the 10 years in Special Forces and 10 years as a Paramedic didn't help me slow down any. We need to realize that we are part of a culture, a very specific culture, and like all cultures that survive past one or two generations, we need to have our initiation rites, ceremonies, and mix them in generously with our work, no matter what that is.

4. He tolerated lots of people and things that I did not. The flight simulator guy is like the F18 pilot is like the L5 owner is like the NASM restorer is like the kid who is just dreaming. We are a diverse community, and there are lots of opportunities to look down at those who we don't think are part of our community. We need to spend time answering the same dumb questions over and over again, and seek to spell those who have been answering those questions for years, and encourage all people out there to participate in our culture.

5. He told me to always have a ceremony whenever and wherever somebody got promoted. We don't do this enough.

On Memorial Day, I think about COL Bob Miller quite a bit. He passed away 11 years ago May 24th, and I think about him almost every day. This is a topic that he would have had much to say about. I like to tell people about when I met him. I was a Corporal in a room full of Generals and Colonels, and he walked up to me (I guess I was looking mortified) and said, "You know, you're the most important guy here in the room...."

Ryan Keough · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2004 9:45 am

All,

These are my observations over the past three years I have been involved with the Collings Foundation and the roughly twelve years prior to that being involved in smaller grass roots organizations such as NWM and 1941 HAG of the Western New York region. These are my own personal statements and do not reflect the opinion of the organizations I am affiliated with.

One significant problem I see with the future of warbirds and of history pertaining to WWII and any 20th century war is the lack of appropriate and concentrated education on the topic in school. I remember that I only had 2 weeks of WWII education in school in one year of my middle/high school experience. Despite the fact I went to an aviation college for my Bachelors degree... there was no class that even touched upon the history of flight or technological advancements of aviation behind the jet age. I think that half (if not more) of the problem is that the true stories behind WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam aren't being broadcast to our younger generations... replaced instead by cleaned-up and compressed lesson plans that touch upon the general concepts but do little to really educate on why the war was really fought, what happened, and what the responses were. I can't tell you how many kids I have come into contact with that can't even tell you who we were fighting against during WWII, much less why the war was even being fought. Teachers should be able to teach WWII (and other war history) without fear of being called a warmonger by overly concerned parents, administrations, and communities.

But I digress... half of the problems of the current education system is the fact that many teachers have no motivation to broaden beyond approved curriculums and take risks because they are consistantly hounded by regulations, underfunding, low pay, and underappreciation in general. That's a political arguement I would rather not have here.

I believe that programs such as Young Eagles goes a long way to motivate youth in aviation, but I always question "what is the follow-up?" As a Young Eagles coordinator here in Stow, MA at the local airport, I am trying to find ways of going beyond the "first flight" and giving options beyond that... eg: Explorer scouting in Aviation, ROTC, CAP, local EAA, aviation charter or tech school programs, etc. I think it is extremely noble to start someone off on the right foot with a Young Eagles flight, but the passion may be lost if it is not sustained. If there were a push to get warbird owners some sort of additional funding (fuel, op costs, etc) to offer YE flights in their planes, I would only say "do it" if there was some sort of way of keeping them interested in the program... such as a youth program at the local warbird group or museum.

I started my interest in warbirds at the age of ten with a 2 week long "summer day camp" program co-sponsored by the National Warplane Museum and the NY Board of Cooperative Education Services (BOCES). There were 20 kids in my group and we had not only aviaton education, but also WWII aviation education primers during the camp. At the end of it, the NWM extended year-long youth memberships to all of us and I was part of about 5 that continued to be active in the NWM long after. I am the only one of those five that didn't go into the Air Force, but I would safely say that I am still involved in aviation and warbirds... very safely say that.

It is programs like that that not only have an initial boost but also the sustaining power that keep kids interested. Backed by local educational infrastructure like the BOCES program, museums and groups can benefit from advanced funding for programs and legitimacy under the heading of "official education". It is a matter of finding the "in" and taking the time and effort to build a program. It is all fine and dandy that we can get kids up in a T-6... but without a program after that, it may be a waste.

I think that the warbird community will indeed grow if groups like the Collings Foundation, Warbird Adventures, CAF (barnstorming specifically), and EAA B-17 program, as well as the many other unmentioned groups that go beyond the host airport and bring the aircraft to communities other than their own to broaden the interest of the general public. Not only is it a viable form of funding the continued flying of significant warbirds and also a "shot in the arm" for maintenence and part vendors specializing in warbirds, but it also creates PR stir in each area that may bring folks out of the woodwork that may have never seen the aircraft or taken any additional effort to go to a museum to see one in person. The ability to fly aboard each plane is an additional form of educating the 20-50 year old demographic as there is a bit of nostalgia and excitement built into the experience and an increased understanding of what family members that fought in the war went through. Its all the good foundation of broadening oral history which gets passed on from generation to generation. This foundation and enthusiasm of the parents and other younger authority figures in families also contributes to the interest and motivation of the younger generations. How many times do you see those blurbs in magazines like "Flying", "AOPA Pilot", and "Sport Aviation" where the mention of the kid soloing on his 16th birthday was due in part to his/her father/mother flying the family plane... proof that family support helps a lot.

Though I wish there was a way, I think there is no way of getting our more private warbird collectors to "open up" and allow kids to become part of their effort. It is always up to the discretion of the owner/operator to actually make the "move" to create some sort of a program and there is no way to have the community exert pressure to have folks do so. It is my opinion that such pushing only creates a double "shove" back in the opposite direction. Our effort should be placed into developing "programs" with materials, resources, and lesson plans that can be plugged into organizations/schools without much initial effort on their part. By doing this, the hard part is finished and all they need to do is "add students, watch it grow". Lone Star Flight Museum has an outstanding example of this (I have a copy of the manual) and I think that if groups like WIX could do something similar, we'd really contrubute where it counts.

The other thing that will help grow the community outside of education in general is the continued patronage of "good vendors" as opposed to "bad vendors". I am speaking of owners/operators/organizations continuing to support quality maintenance/restoration companies and parts suppliers and not always looking for the "best raw deal" where quality may be compromised for price. We are in a small community and parts trade among operators quite a bit. Wouldn't it be comforting to know the part you traded or purchased from another owner was of Brand Q instead of Brand X that has had a record of shoddy workmanship? In addition, by putting capital into the good companies, you are giving them the resources to expand operations, train the specialists of the next generation, and possibly drive prices down through increased productivity and efficiency. We know that there are a lot of potential pilots out there for warbirds and we all know that there are core groups of enthusiasts like us that can keep it going... we need to know that there are restorers, mechanics, and parts vendors to keep us going. Without them, we can have all the pilots and enhusiasts we want, but won't see a single plane in the air.

If you have had the patience to read all this, I will do you the favor of getting off my soapbox now and give you the .02 you are owed. Thanks.

Ryan Keough

Dan K · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2004 10:32 am

Wow! You've all (especially FF and Ryan) touched on some excellent points.

I think one of the truly beautiful points to ponder with those interested in warbirds is that we are a HIGHLY diverse bunch. Warbirds have appeal to:

1) historians
2) speed buffs
3) rebuilders
4) reenactors
5) piston engine buffs
6) modelers
7) archaeologists

photographers

And I'm sure I've missed more, but you catch my drift. In other words, the way that I got hooked by warbirds (models, a trip to OSH, and those weekly episodes of "Black Sheep Squadron") isn't necessarily the same way anyone else became an addict.

It would appear to me that the promotion and propogation of the warbird movement has two major campaigns before it:

1) Furthering the movement among those already interested in aviation (but not necessarily in warbirds)

2) Furthering the movement among those with little-to-no interest or knowledge in aviation at all

As a professional educator (just finished 17th school term), I have a pretty good idea how to get kids involved (FF touched on some of the most important points). For the last few years I've ended the school year with a combination history/science unit on aviation. The unit ends with a Young Eagles flight for all my 13- and 14-year-old participants.

Now granted, this IS forced feeding! I am the teacher--they are the students. But something unusual has happened every year. I've met several WWII aviation veterans (grandpas of students) that were delighted in what I was doing. Some kids--who were terrified of even the thought of flight in a small plane--would "give it a try" due to positive peer pressure from friends in the class. The event doesn't include just flights for kids, but tours for the whole family through hangars, past rebuild projects, the whole 9 yards. Few events I conduct all year invite more questioning from the students. It's absolutely infectious.

Now I'm not trying to blow my own horn here, but all this wouldn't be taking place unless I--the teacher--wasn't making the effort to do so. What I'm trying to get at is, even though virtually every local EAA chapter offers Young Eagles flights, VERY FEW of my parents or students have ever heard of them...AND I LIVE IN THE HEART OF EAA COUNTRY.

I'd be glad to share with anyone on this board my ideas for getting school kids involved (The EAA has made a good start, but there's a long way to go).

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2004 11:34 am

My first exposure to warbirds, as I am sure is the most common circumstance, was at airshows. One benefit I had is my father was a Naval aviator (flight engineer) so I was exposed to aircraft fairly early. I did not however have the oppurtunity to hang out at an airfield or a museum or in general get exposed to warbirds on a regular basis.

I'm afraid that alot of kids don't even get exposed to the historical aspects of aviation or even aviation in general. Now I like the young eagle and I will be talking with Ryan K. this weekend about it. Dan however brought up and interesting point. His position as a teacher allows him to influence his kids and help them get a taste of this subject. One thing we could see about doing is not only inform and recruit kids but also teachers. It might be worthwhile to talk to teachers at the local high school. If we can get the teachers involved we can get the kids involved. I'm sure most teachers aren't even aware of the exsisting programs.

I think we have several good ideas (I like Brandons idea of model inserts, I'll look into that) Keep em coming.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2004 12:19 pm

This is a great topic.
I'm 22 and I would LOVE to be more involved than I am, but the nearest group I know of is the Yellow Rose crew out in San Marcos which is a 45+ minute drive besides the gas prices these days. I'm trying to get my pilots license which is VERY expensive for a 22 yr old making whatever pocket change I can, and between those factors I just CAN'T make it out to San Marcos most of the time. I wish I knew of someone at SAT where I fly that would want extra help now and then on a warbird.

Ryan

Ryan Keough · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2004 12:39 pm

Scott WRG Editor wrote:

One thing we could see about doing is not only inform and recruit kids but also teachers. It might be worthwhile to talk to teachers at the local high school. If we can get the teachers involved we can get the kids involved. I'm sure most teachers aren't even aware of the exsisting programs.

One thing I'd recommend (this goes for you too Ryan S.) is to look into the FAA Educational Outreach programs in your area: http://www.faa.gov/education/index.cfm

We have an extremely active FAA Education group up here in New England with many ACE (Aviation Career Education) Camps and programs that reach even the most urban areas. Again, this is mainly mainstream aviation, but they are always looking for groups to implement new programs (such as a warplane education program) to offer to their "aviation friendly educators". New England region is also the home to the FAA National Education office and the administrator is a personal friend of mine. I can pull the thoughts we have posted here together and meet with her on some possible options.

Ryan Keough

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2004 1:05 pm

Ryan Keough wrote:

One thing I'd recommend (this goes for you too Ryan S.) is to look into the FAA Educational Outreach programs in your area: http://www.faa.gov/education/index.cfm

We have an extremely active FAA Education group up here in New England with many ACE (Aviation Career Education) Camps and programs that reach even the most urban areas. Again, this is mainly mainstream aviation, but they are always looking for groups to implement new programs (such as a warplane education program) to offer to their "aviation friendly educators". New England region is also the home to the FAA National Education office and the administrator is a personal friend of mine. I can pull the thoughts we have posted here together and meet with her on some possible options.

Ryan Keough

Those ACE (Aviation Career Education) Camps are GREAT! I can personally attest to their value. I was privileged to attend one at DFW in '99 sponsored by OBAP. It was a really great experiance and a huge motivator. It was actually a real eye-opener for me as well. I don't consider myself racist because I believe that all people are created in God's image (Gen. 1) and that the ground is equal at the foot of the cross. However, I don't have a lot of exposure to folks from other cultural backgrounds. Anyway, since OBAP was sponsoring the event, I was feeling like part of the minority and ended up sitting some with a darker-shaded mellanin fellow from New York as our San Antonio Spurs were playing their New York Knicks for the NBA Championships... I don't really care that much for sports, but it made for an interesting sidenote to the aircraft :roll:

. I made some good friends and enjoyed the experience a LOT. My only regret was that I missed the promised ride in a Stearman on the last day (the weather was bad and he couldn't come :-(

). My buddy and I did get the best ride though.

Ryan Short.

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2004 5:23 pm

RyanShort1 wrote:

I'm trying to get my pilots license which is VERY expensive for a 22 yr old making whatever pocket change I can

Uncle Sam can teach you to fly...and for not a cent out of your pocket! It may take a pretty big chunk out of your ass, though, heh heh.

This is a great topic. I grew up in a military aviation family, with an ex- USAF dad (flight engineer on B-29s, C-54s, and SA-16s) and a Navy brother (P-3 driver). My dad owned an airplane, so I was flying before I could even see over the instrument panel, and summers every year were filled with trips to every air show in the Pacific Northwest.

So, I've been a warbird enthusiast for a long time. The strange thing is that, growing up and going to school, I had very few peers who had the same interests. It wasn't until I joined CAP that I at least got close to the right thing.

Even now, as a full-time fighter pilot, there aren't a lot of my pilot peers who are into WW2 aviation.

I think the point is that it's never *easy* to do...like Dan K mentioned, sometimes it takes a little forced feeding. I believe that the public education system is a good place to start. I personally would have loved to had available a magnet High School or something in the area that had an aviation focus. Hell, even if my school district had some kind of aviation related program somewhere, that would have been cool, too.

J Scheil · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2004 6:10 pm

"As sad as it is ruthlessly true, our WWII veterans will not be around in thirty years. They are a driving force in the Warbird movement and museums around the world. "

Completely false. WWII veterans have never been the driving force in Museums or Warbird Restoration/Preservation. They are involved now in various capacities, but their generation was not responsible for virtually any of the preservation that has taken place. The few aircraft that were preserved as War Memorials just after WWII were nearly all destroyed or scrapped by 1970. The USN and USAF destroyed countless aircraft earmarked for preservation during the late 40's and 50's, and it was the ex WWII Colonels and such that had it done. The generation that gave so much was not interested in preserving any of the material of the time, and is perhaps best understood through the movie "The Best Years of Our Lives". The greatest generation gave us many things, but aircraft preservation was really not one of them.

Current flying aircraft are supplemented today by aiding in preserving the recollections of those who were there, and continuing an interest innew blood. The foundations of aircraft preservation though are not based in preserving the memories of the War, but in enjoyment and understanding of superb flying machines. Remember that there were no flying P-51 Mustangs in Combat colors prior to 1970. The only time aircraft were painted that way was for the movies, and it was badly done besides. The post 1990 historical record is so much better than what existed 40 years before, as young researchers and historians are digging deeper into the details of the war than was ever considered possible.

What is remarkable here is that for those who went to grade school in the USA prior to 1970 would see a decline in todays quality of eduaction, or so we hear. The current multilingual multicultural non judgemental (by judging with questionable ethics) education system has produced none of the current historians of note. All it has done is taught them to read. Education is simply not possible when done by paid lackeys of a system that panders to the lowest common denominator. Even the "high minded" college campus profs. from the school of your choice cannot even begin to compete with any one of us when it comes to discussing the airwar and its significance. The point is that we cannot rely on THEM to preserve, teach and remember. It is best done by the underground, or those who on their own read and build our own monuments to that time.

Flying, rebuilding and maintaining Warbirds is not something that I have seen is as a bastion of the WWII vet either. The "Warbird Movement" is a latter day creation to explain the current industry that builds and maintains a growing fleet. It is a small industry of dedicated people who rebuild these planes for a variety of factors. To assume that the passing of those who lived it will affect the relavance of the aircraft or the abilities of those that rebuild them is disrespectful to those that make it happen. The preservationists preserved aircraft before it was "cool" or finacially smart. They bought derelicts just to save them from scrapping, and bought all they could using questionable finances and stretching friendships and family to the limit. The old collectors did it out of a love for the machines and a reverence to the battles past. They had no support from nearly anywhere else...They provided us with much of the raw material that we use today.

Its important to record the observations and the impressions of those that flew these aircraft in combat, just as its important to remember that now these are artifacts and not combat aircraft. The stewardship and conservation we practice over the next years will allow the current industry to grow or wither. The problem of there not being enough people in the "movement" is laughable. These things get more expensive every day, and more young people come into this game, pushing prices ever higher. While I may someday have a Mustang of my own, and fly it in honor of those who sacrificed so much...Its important to remember that I restore this thing for me, so I can experience a taste of what they did. To be alone in a fighter, above the clouds, and for a time master of all I survey...until I need help from ATC to find the airport...

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