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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:41 pm 
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Thanks again for the answer and info Michael, good stuff!

I think one facet to this reconstruction that I had forgotten was that it incorportates an Allison V-1710 engine. Being that both the Jumo 213A and DB603 are an inverted V cylinder design (crank at the top) and the Allison V-1710 has the opposite config. (crank at the bottom), Yagens Fw190-D had to have created a unique support structure to accomodate the Allison and build the exhaust stubs in such a way as to exit in the same fuselage location as the original -Ds stubs. Would be an interesting photo to see how the exhausts and structure were designed to accomplish this. Also, Jumos and DBs were supercharged, the Allison V-1710s were turbocharged. The blower intake found on the Fw190-D would be superfluous on this reconstruction using an Allison. I have to wonder what the output on this Allison is, has to be less than a supercharged Jumo213. I guess we can hope that Jerry Yagen will eventually source a Jumo 213A and reconstruct to make the swap, unless the DB603 version outlined by Michael has engine sourcing advantages for him. The combat record of the D-9 might make him persevere for a Jumo, something the D-14 lacks.

Engine dimensions for comparison purposes:
Allison V-1710-F30
L:86 in., W: 29.28 in., H: 37.65 in.

Jumo 213A
L: 89 in., W: 30.6 in., H: 38.6 in.

DB603E
L: 102 in., W: 32.7 in., H: 45.5"

Sources: Wikipedia Allison V-1710 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_V-1710
Jumo 213A and DB603E, The Focke Wulf 190 http://www.fockewulf190.net/acceuuk.htm

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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:33 pm 
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TriangleP wrote:
Also, Jumos and DBs were supercharged, the Allison V-1710s were turbocharged.

While Allisons were turbocharged on the P-38, they were supercharged on various other aircraft, P-39, P-40, P-63, P-82, new build Yak-3,-9, etc..
http://www.enginehistory.org/Convention ... llison.pdf

In the 190D installation, this Allison (and perhaps all) uses a downdraft carburetor.

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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:13 pm 
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I believe the deal was to find a suitable engine to build up some D models. The Fw-190 kits were originally $600k USD. So add a couple hundred thousand bucks more for a Dora and you would have the coolest fighter at any airshow. The problem is, while they did a masterful job at Flug Werk, there were lingering details to be worked out. Some that come to mind on the "A's" were gear issues, electrical harness issues, prop reliability issues, cooling issues with the engine and it's coolers. Also paint and avionics weren't provided with the kit and this had to be figured out by each customer.
Take the cost of a Dora kit, plus the cost to get it shipped, assembled, licensed,test flights, and paint. Now add $1.5 million to upgrade it to a JUMO 213 with cowlings, engine mount, etc. Plus the cost to reverse engineer the FLug werk Dora designed for an Allison, back to the original equipment.
Anyone care to guess what the all up costs are to have it finished and flying?


Last edited by marine air on Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:59 pm 
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All Allisons have a centrifugal supercharger. Some like the P-38 had an additional supercharging stage using a turbo.


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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:06 pm 
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Great pics Mike, thanks for posting them.

Good gawd, the cost to fly? It may be difficult for even Jerry Yagen to know with precision. I can only guess that each of these restoration projects he embarks on may be nearly a financial black hole, final costs unknown. So you're probably right marine air, a Jumo is probably beyond the pale. But Mr. Yagen seems to like a technical challenge, so I'm stupidly hopeful. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:08 pm 
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bdk wrote:
All Allisons have a centrifugal supercharger. Some like the P-38 had an additional supercharging stage using a turbo.

Thanks Brandon! I know the supercharger is located on the aft portion of the engine, is this the case as seen in the photos by Mike?

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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:18 pm 
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Yes, the carburetor feeds right into the supercharger impeller via an elbow. Most Merlins used updraft carburetors, most Allisons used downdraft.

The supercharger on the sides of the German engines may heve been to reduce the overall length of the engine and to simplify the carburetor ducting.


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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:54 am 
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DoraNineFan wrote:
......

And this is the first time I'm seeing any info on this rebuild at Sandy Air Corp. It's being rebuilt to static display.
Fw190 D-9 # 400616 White 16 III./JG 54


Quite late a response, but I took the pics with my old mobile phone, I had no access to them until now, ´cause it broke.
In autumn I visited Air Fighter Academy - Hangar 10 at Usedom. There the above mentioned D-9 is on it´s own feet, well, more or less. Unlike most of the other a/c of AFA it is a static rebuild by Sandy Air Corp.

Image

Image

More here:

http://s281.beta.photobucket.com/user/m ... 3860662178

Sorry for quality, but I forgot my camera, so my mobile had to do.
Enjoy!

Michael


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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:51 am 
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redvanner wrote:
DoraNineFan wrote:
......

And this is the first time I'm seeing any info on this rebuild at Sandy Air Corp. It's being rebuilt to static display.
Fw190 D-9 # 400616 White 16 III./JG 54


Quite late a response, but I took the pics with my old mobile phone, I had no access to them until now, ´cause it broke.
In autumn I visited Air Fighter Academy - Hangar 10 at Usedom. There the above mentioned D-9 is on it´s own feet, well, more or less. Unlike most of the other a/c of AFA it is a static rebuild by Sandy Air Corp.

Michael


I didn't realize they were that far along with the rebuild. I wonder if they acquired the third FlugWerk D-9 fuselage or converted another kit from them. It's too bad that this one will not be a flyer also.

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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:55 pm 
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Okay, the number to have a flyable Fw-190D (flugwerk) retrofitted and flying with an original firewall forward JUMO 213A; $2.5 million USD.
$1.5 million USD is the number I received from a very reliable source involved in the Blair Dora. Apparently there is a QEC Jumo firewall forward, accessories, cowlings, everything and the guys in New Zealand are willing to tackle the rebuild of it and its accessories. That leaves a million to acquire and complete the rest of the airframe as mentioned in previous post.


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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:21 am 
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marine air wrote:
the guys in New Zealand are willing to tackle the rebuild of it and its accessories.

Please do! I'd love to have a Dora project take flight here pop2

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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:21 pm 
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DoraNineFan wrote:
..... I wonder if they acquired the third FlugWerk D-9 fuselage or converted another kit from them.

AFAIK they did not use anything from Flugwerk, they did everything on their own.
Quote:
It's too bad that this one will not be a flyer also.


It was mentioned on some other forum (I can´t remember where and when), that Sandy Air Corp. is using non-airworthy materials. And they are not rated as maintenance or repair shop. So it definitely will not fly (if not in a cargo hold of a freighter). But you are right, I would like 190 D´s flying as well, the more, the better.

Michael


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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:39 am 
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redvanner wrote:
C VEICH wrote:
TriangleP wrote:
I hope we will see this Dora fly with a Jumo engine soon...


I would be pretty excited to see it fly with the Allison. A Jumo would be mind boggling! :)


Well, in fact it must not be a Jumo 213 neccessarily. It also could (might) be a DB 603. It would be a D-14 version. Though only 2 were built (AFAIK), it would be a very reasonable version. (Ta 152 C had the DB as well, but I believe the wings were different to the Fw 190 D series.) And it happens to be that MeierMotors just have one of the DB 603 around. (It is purely speculation by me, as I do not know for which project the 603 might be, nor do I know who owns this engine.) But it seems to be in excellent condition, at least what can be told by the pics. (MeierMotors FB site, scroll down to February 10.)

http://www.facebook.com/pages/MeierMoto ... 9400376090

Michael


When searching the net, I found this site by chance. There is a pic of a Fw 190 D-14 fuselage. At least it seems to have the DB engine fitted, as the scoop for the charger is on the left side (pilot´s view), whereas Jumo´s have the scoop on the right side. (If the pic is not inverted) The 2 planes converted to D-14 standard were Fw 190 V 76 (WNr.: 210040) and V 77 (WNr.: 210043), originally built as D-9 by Focke-Wulf, Cottbus plant in autumn 1944. Conversion was made by Daimler-Benz at Stuttgart-Echterdingen airfield.

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/107193

Michael

Scroll down for the pic.


Last edited by redvanner on Fri May 31, 2013 8:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:54 am 
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Michael, that's a good find... that is indeed a DB-powered Dora, note the angular "bump" above the supercharger intake for the DB engine mount which is also present in a different form on the Ta 152C. The use of what appears to be a nearly standard Bf 109G intake is curious. :)

I wasn't aware this made it beyond the paper design stage- I may have to get another 1/48 Tamiya kit and do a little scratchbuilding!

Thanks for this!

Cheers,

Lynn

PS: I've actually sat in the Dora out in Va Beach... that is one seriously tight cockpit, but the visibility is amazing. No wonder pilots loved those things!


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 Post subject: Re: New build FW-190D???
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:17 am 
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In regards to FlugWerks, did anyone ever get to the bottom of the story from last year about the FW-190 with the shoddy rivet work?

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.o ... p?p=452004


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