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 Post subject: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:42 pm 
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B-17 Folks:

Does anyone know the final destination of one poss two DR samples c. 1947?? Any photos??

Tks in advance


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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:25 am 
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Perhaps just a smidgin more info might help- :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:34 am 
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The Inspector wrote:
Perhaps just a smidgin more info might help- :wink:

He's asking for information and photos on one, possibly two, B-17Gs that served with the Dominican Republic AF circa 1947.


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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:17 am 
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B-17 Folks:

One of them was DR AF S/N 2301.


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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:22 am 
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FAD serials 2301 and 2302

http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_ ... d=01703280
http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_ ... d=01699910

Identities unknown and some sources cite 4 B-17s but more likely just the same two re-serialed.
I did find this reference to a book Central America and Caribean Air Forces - Dan Hagedorn although this extract is not too helpful as the identity information is garbled.
Quote:
Boeing (Vega) B17Gs,complete with functional turrets, guns and bomb bays(ex 44-857561N9205 and N9206), these also being flown into Andrews Field illegally on 24 February 1947 by US pilots Berry Wympy and Atkins, apparently solo! They arrived bearing only the insignia '9205' and '9206'. Strangely, '9206' departed Ciudad Trujillo briefly on 1 March, destination unknown, and it would appear that this was replaced by another aircraft flown into the DR illegally by Edward Browder, Jr. in August.
September 1948 stated that yet another B-17 arrived two or three days previously, but this may have been '9206' returning. However, by January 1949, US intelligence counted only two B-17s "in excellent condition" on CAMD strength. The initial serials of these are unknown, but may have been in the 601, 602 series. These two aircraft later gained serials in the modern AMD series, 2301 and 2302, and remained on strength with the Escuadron de Caza Bombardero as late as July 1954.
I don't think N9205/6 were real registrations and the USAAF serial is obviously wrong although it(they?) does seem to lie within a batch of B-17s 44-85492/85841.


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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:59 pm 
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I'll offer the following as excerpted from my September 2007 B-17 News (http://www.aerovintage.com/b17news7.htm) Some photos there also.

In the process of putting together the page on the film Command Decision recently, I dug into my files for information on the B-17G reportedly used in the film, 44-83842. One of my best sources for postwar B-17 information has always been the late Malcolm Gougon, who spent many research slowly compiling information that is now priceless, at least to me. His records indicate the following about 44-83842: It was sold as surplus out of Altus AAF in May 1947 to Bob Sturges (dba Columbia Airmotive) of Troutdale, Oregon, and registered as NL1212N. In February 1948 he sold it to aircraft broker Charles Babb operating from the Grand Central Air Terminal in Southern California. Babb leased it to Warner Brothers for Fighter Squadron in the spring of 1948 and then to MGM for Command Decision. The airplane retained the gun turrets at this time. It was then sold in late June or early July to Israeli interests represented by Al Schwimmer, who had already smuggled three B-17s out of the U.S. bound for Israel. A crew tried to fly NL1212N out of the country during the second week of July. During the first week of July arrangements were made by a company named "World Air Ferries" at White Plains, New York, to purchase 6,500 gallons of avgas to be used to fuel two B-17s and four A-26s. (By the way, the four A-26s referred to here actually have been four Douglas A-20s, N5066N through N5069N, purchased in July 1948 and destined to Israel but interned at Miami instead in August 1948).

When NL1212N showed up on July 11 at 0800, it was marked with the bogus registration of NL7712M. It was fueled and, after a short test flight, immediately departed bound for the Azores. It suffered some engine problems and ended up landng at Halifx, Nova Scotia, where it was imppounded. After a minor international incident, it was released for a return flight to the U.S. on July 16. During that flight, which apparently had the B-17 headed east instead of southwest out of Halifax, ended early when three cowlings blew off the B-17 and it returned to Halifax. After repairs, the Canadians only would authorized a depature if the B-17 was escorted back to the U.S., arrangements for which were made for a July 18th departure. Shortly before midnight on the 17th, though, the airplane departed Halifax without permission and ended up in the Azores.

There, Portugese authorities impounded the airplane and crew, the crew later being released to return to the U.S. The airplane's fate is not confirmed, but the best sources would indicate that it was shortly afterwards covertly obtained by the Dominican Republic. Some reports suggest that it was flown into the Domincan Republic in 1951 and became part of its air force flying as FAD 2301. However, Dan Hagedorn's excellent Central American and Caribbean Air Forces notes the arrival of a B-17G in the Dominican Republic in mid-September 1948, which makes more sense in the timeline. Two sources suggest this B-17G later carried the Dominican air force serial of FAD 2301. It remained in service until at least July 1954 but its ultimate fate is unknown.

With reference to the above and also Dan Hagedorn's excellent book, I would be remiss in not mentioning the Dominican B-17s. Dan's information on these airplanes suggest as many as four B-17s were eventually attached to the Dominican air forces, as follows:

"...two completely stock Boeing (Vega) B-17Gs, complete with functional turrets, guns and bomb bays (ex 44-85756/N9205 and N9206), these also being flown into Andrews Field illegally on 24 February 1947 by U.S. pilots Barry Wympy and Atkins, apparently solo! They arrived bearing only the insignias '9205' and '9206'. Strangely, '9206' departed Ciudad Trujillo briedly on 1 March, destination unknown, and it would appear that this was replaced by another aircraft flown into the DR illegally by Edward Browder, Jr. in August (1947). A U.S. embassy report dated 22 September 1948 stated that yet another B-17 arrived two or three days previously, but this may have been '9206' returning. However, by January 1949, US intelligence counted only two B-17s 'in excellent conditon' on CAMD strength."

In my research, I come to a different conclusions about '9205' and '9206'. Offering too much of a coincidence to be ignored, there were two surplus B-17Es released by the Canadian RCAF in early 1947, and marked only with the RCAF serials of 9205 and 9206 (41-2438 and 41-9142). A. Marino, the noted Argentinean aviaiton historian, records that these airplane were delivered to Argentina in March 1947 after a ferry flight that included a stop at Ciudad Trujillo. The following year civil registrations were assigned, the two becoming LV-RTO and LV-RTP, respectively. This would suggest that the appearance in the Ciudad Trujillo in March 1947 was during their delivery flight to Argentina. Both were old B-17Es, and both had been modified by the RCAF to carry mail and neither had turrets nor guns installed.

Based on this conclusion, I think it's reasonable to presume that the Dominican B-17s were only 44-83842, possibly 44-85756, and maybe a third unidentified B-17, though this to me is doubtful. More research is needed, but this is a reasonable conclusion based on sketchy information.

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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:55 pm 
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B-17 Folks/Aerovin:

Good day!

That's is a superb amount of research of the B-17 DR birds! Tks. So far we have S/N 186 from the Flypast folks and now 2 more DR #2301 & 2302. Did Mr.Trujillo had a few spares???

p.s more info here:



http://www.pista01.com/index.php?option ... d=5&id=966


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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:44 am 
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DR B-17 Folks:

The possible DR #2301 bearing #186 or #106. Confiscated in the Azores Islands c. 1947. Via Flypast Forum folks.

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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:13 am 
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This is believed to be 44-83842 in 1948 after internment in Portugal. I think it is very likely it is the same airplane.

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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:12 am 
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Aerovin:

Good day!

Great pics again! Tks

Do you have some photos of some DR black P-38s & Black B-26 of circa 1947??


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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Not a one....sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: Dominican B-17Gs
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 6:30 pm 
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aerovin wrote:
I'll offer the following as excerpted from my September 2007 B-17 News (http://www.aerovintage.com/b17news7.htm) Some photos there also.

In the process of putting together the page on the film Command Decision recently, I dug into my files for information on the B-17G reportedly used in the film, 44-83842. One of my best sources for postwar B-17 information has always been the late Malcolm Gougon, who spent many research slowly compiling information that is now priceless, at least to me. His records indicate the following about 44-83842: It was sold as surplus out of Altus AAF in May 1947 to Bob Sturges (dba Columbia Airmotive) of Troutdale, Oregon, and registered as NL1212N. In February 1948 he sold it to aircraft broker Charles Babb operating from the Grand Central Air Terminal in Southern California. Babb leased it to Warner Brothers for Fighter Squadron in the spring of 1948 and then to MGM for Command Decision. The airplane retained the gun turrets at this time. It was then sold in late June or early July to Israeli interests represented by Al Schwimmer, who had already smuggled three B-17s out of the U.S. bound for Israel. A crew tried to fly NL1212N out of the country during the second week of July. During the first week of July arrangements were made by a company named "World Air Ferries" at White Plains, New York, to purchase 6,500 gallons of avgas to be used to fuel two B-17s and four A-26s. (By the way, the four A-26s referred to here actually have been four Douglas A-20s, N5066N through N5069N, purchased in July 1948 and destined to Israel but interned at Miami instead in August 1948).

When NL1212N showed up on July 11 at 0800, it was marked with the bogus registration of NL7712M. It was fueled and, after a short test flight, immediately departed bound for the Azores. It suffered some engine problems and ended up landing at Halifx, Nova Scotia, where it was impounded. After a minor international incident, it was released for a return flight to the U.S. on July 16. During that flight, which apparently had the B-17 headed east instead of southwest out of Halifax, ended early when three cowlings blew off the B-17 and it returned to Halifax. After repairs, the Canadians only would authorized a departure if the B-17 was escorted back to the U.S., arrangements for which were made for a July 18th departure. Shortly before midnight on the 17th, though, the airplane departed Halifax without permission and ended up in the Azores.

There, Portuguese authorities impounded the airplane and crew, the crew later being released to return to the U.S. The airplane's fate is not confirmed, but the best sources would indicate that it was shortly afterwards covertly obtained by the Dominican Republic. Some reports suggest that it was flown into the Dominican Republic in 1951 and became part of its air force flying as FAD 2301.
However, Dan Hagedorn's excellent Central American and Caribbean Air Forces notes the arrival of a B-17G in the Dominican Republic in mid-September 1948, which makes more sense in the timeline. Two sources suggest this B-17G later carried the Dominican air force serial of FAD 2301. It remained in service until at least July 1954 but its ultimate fate is unknown.

With reference to the above and also Dan Hagedorn's excellent book, I would be remiss in not mentioning the Dominican B-17s. Dan's information on these airplanes suggest as many as four B-17s were eventually attached to the Dominican air forces, as follows:

"...two completely stock Boeing (Vega) B-17Gs, complete with functional turrets, guns and bomb bays (ex 44-85756/N9205 and N9206), these also being flown into Andrews Field illegally on 24 February 1947 by U.S. pilots Barry Wympy and Atkins, apparently solo! They arrived bearing only the insignias '9205' and '9206'. Strangely, '9206' departed Ciudad Trujillo briedly on 1 March, destination unknown, and it would appear that this was replaced by another aircraft flown into the DR illegally by Edward Browder, Jr. in August (1947). A U.S. embassy report dated 22 September 1948 stated that yet another B-17 arrived two or three days previously, but this may have been '9206' returning. However, by January 1949, US intelligence counted only two B-17s 'in excellent conditon' on CAMD strength."

In my research, I come to a different conclusions about '9205' and '9206'. Offering too much of a coincidence to be ignored, there were two surplus B-17Es released by the Canadian RCAF in early 1947, and marked only with the RCAF serials of 9205 and 9206 (41-2438 and 41-9142). A. Marino, the noted Argentinean aviation historian, records that these airplane were delivered to Argentina in March 1947 after a ferry flight that included a stop at Ciudad Trujillo. The following year civil registrations were assigned, the two becoming LV-RTO and LV-RTP, respectively. This would suggest that the appearance in the Ciudad Trujillo in March 1947 was during their delivery flight to Argentina. Both were old B-17Es, and both had been modified by the RCAF to carry mail and neither had turrets nor guns installed.

Based on this conclusion, I think it's reasonable to presume that the Dominican B-17s were only 44-83842, possibly 44-85756, and maybe a third unidentified B-17, though this to me is doubtful. More research is needed, but this is a reasonable conclusion based on sketchy information.


I'm resurrecting this thread because I don't want to propagate an error I made in what I wrote in 2012. A couple of years ago I was able to nail down the identity of the airplane interned in Portugal with the bogus civil registration of N7712M. It was B-17G 44-85764 (not 44-83812 as stated above) and all indications are that 44-85764 was scrapped at an airfield in the Azores...never made it to the Dominican Republic or anywhere else.

Instead, the referenced 44-83842, as operated as NL1212N, was exported directly by the Babb Company to the Dominican Republic in September 1948. It was all done quite legally and is documented in the long-missing but since located FAA registration file for NL1212N.

So the end result with the Dominican Republic is still that one B-17G was almost definitely 44-83842 and the second B-17G may have been 44-85764, as per Dan Hagedorn.

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