Is the A-36 an Apache or a Mustang?

[Stephan Wilkinson]

1940's era PC-ism

Having grown up in the 1940s (born '36), trust me, there was no such thing.

[CoastieJohn]

1940's era PC-ism

Having grown up in the 1940s (born '36), trust me, there was no such thing.

Then how about the reverse?

[Stephan Wilkinson]

You've lost me.

[CoastieJohn]

You've lost me.

Racial bias.

[Noha307]

While working on a post in the Vintage Aviation Books and Periodicals thread the other day, I came across something that may shed some light on this whole discussion. The Pilot Training Manual for the Mustang P-51 includes a two page passage in the introduction titled "An Old Indian Legend" about a "young Indian brave" who tames a Mustang:

Once upon a time, long ago, when his tribe was at war, a young Indian brave was called to the tepee of his eldest uncle.

"My son," said the uncle, who wks one of the chiefs of the tribe, "you are needed to join our warriors in the fight. You haven't many years, but you are strong of body and quick of mind. And you are greatly needed.

"So I have decided to bestow upon you a great honor," continued the uncle. "You are to have the finest stallion in my herd—that beautiful young mustang from the western plains!'

The boy's face glowed with delight. For well he knew that only the luckiest among the tribe were privileged to go forth to battle on the speedy, spirited, and durable little mustangs.

"But it will take time to master this stallion," warned the uncle. "You will have to work hard and long and patiently with the animal. And you will not be allowed to join your elders against the enemy until you have proved well that you can handle him."

In the days that followed, the young brave was the envy of all eyes, for the mustang was a beauty to behold and one of the fastest horses of the tribe.

Now this made the young brave all the more eager. So in just a few weeks he returned to his uncle saying, "I am ready to join the fight."

The chief took the young brave, proud upon his fiery mustang, to a great clearing in the wood to see how well he and his newly broken stallion could perform.

In the very first test where the going was rough, the boy landed in a heap on the ground.

"My son," said the uncle, "you have disregarded my warning. There is no finer horse in all our herds than the one I have given you. But it is fast, and full of power and destruction. And it must be made to know that you are its master. Or, as you have learned, you will not be riding the animal long."

In the days that followed, the chastened young brave worked diligently with his stallion. He now respected its speed and daring which were his to command. And though con-fident, he never bragged of his prowess.

In due time, the uncle, wise in the ways of the world, put the boy once again to the test. On this occasion the young brave had the mustang completely under his control. He had worked hard and long, because he really wanted to succeed. Man and animal performed as one, the beautiful stallion itsponding to the slightest command of the rider in a manner that warmed the heart of the aged uncle.

In the years that followed, the young brave, with his unrivaled mustang under perfect con-trol, performed brilliantly in fight after fight. Enemy braves, riding lesser animals, could never match his masterful performance. None could outride him; none could outwit him.

The young brave's deeds became legendary. And he lived to be a very old man and had many offspring—who never tired of relating the heroic deeds of their famous forebear.

(Source: Pilot Training Manual for the Mustang P-51 (Headquarters, AAF, Office of Flying Safety, n.d.), 5-6.)

What is interesting is that, although nominally about the horse, it could just as easily be read as focusing on the warrior. Perhaps this a leftover from an earlier draft for an aircraft named the Apache? (A later edition of the pilot training manual cuts the story entirely. Maybe the company had begun to drift even further away from the origin of the name as time went on?) It certainly seems to at least suggest that the Native American motif was in the minds of the designers at the time. Furthermore, North American seemed particularly keen on coining and marketing nicknames themselves, as one newspaper article notes:

A new branding iron, one that will help scorch the hides of Hitler and Hirohito, was added to Texas' famous collection this week.

It is the Flying T, symbol of the Texan, the name which North American Aviation, Inc., has chosen for its combat trainer in honor of America's air heroes of this war, many of whom received their advanced flying instruction in this plane before they set out to bomb Tokyo, sink enemy vessels and knock Stukas and Zeros out of the air.

Choice of the name Texan for the AT-6 series of combat trainers was announced by the company, whose Dallas Division has set a "plains to planes" production record. The first blackout plant of the Dallas Division, constructed in 120 days, delivered its first AT-6 on April 7, 1941. Manned by Texans, it has remained consistently ahead of schedule since that date.

(Source: "A New Symbol Is Born as AT-Trainer Named 'Texan'," Victoria Advocate, January 17, 1943, 1.)

This theme was continued into the company published pilot's manual for the Texan, the cover of which featured a full color illustration of a cowboy on horseback.

Why the obsession with "western" nicknames? It could be the result of the company's westward move after initially being established in Maryland. It certainly seems likely to have been on the mind of Ed Schmued, the Mustang's designer. According to his Wikipedia article:

The talented and inventive Schmued, by now a citizen of the United States, was employed by North American Aviation (NAA) in Dundalk, Maryland. In 1935, North American was relocated to Los Angeles, California, by General Motors. When his wife Luisa proved reluctant to relocate from the east coast, Schmued joined Bellanca but his time there was short-lived. While traveling to California to work again for North American, the Schmueds were involved in a head-on collision on Route 60. Schmued's wife was killed, while he himself was seriously injured.

(Source: Wikipedia)

Furthermore, Schmued was born in Germany in 1899 and left the country for Brazil in 1925. The romantic portrayal of Native Americans in German popular culture had been bolstered by the novels of Karl May. Novels which which first appeared in 1880 and ran until 1898. It is entirely possible that Schmued grew up reading these books. So, while, as mentioned in another thread, Robert Grinsell and Rikyu Watanabe claimed the Mustang "name was based on a song that had made the rounds of both the American and European Continents during the late 1930's", it may have at least in part been inspired by other sources.

As a final note, while discussing the Beechcraft T-6 Texan II with an airman at Thunder Over Michigan in 2021, the subject of the "Texan" name came up. He claimed that one of the reasons that the T-6B was given the name "Wolverine" was that the name "Texan II" would not sell well south of the Rio Grande.

[JohnB]

It seems that the question has resolved itself.

If you go back to page 1 of this thread, a couple of posters were adamant about the A-36 should bear the Mustang name.

Reading some posts, including one from myself, it it apparent that at one time the NMUSAF called the A-36 the Apache.

I just went back to their website, which as you might expect been revised a few times since 2012....it now reads:
A-36 Mustang
Also nicknamed the "Apache” or “Invader," the A-36A dive bomber was the first US Army Air Forces version of the Mustang, officially developed for Britain in 1940. The first A-36 flew in September 1942, and North American Aviation completed production of 500 A-36As in March 1943".


One interesting point, back in 2012 I mentioned I had a 1944 book which mentions the "Invader" name for the A-36. Australian author James Kightly (corrected, sorry about the "n") (not seen here as often nowadays), asked for a scan, which I sent.
Until this thread resurfaced, I had completely forgotten about the topic, scan or the old book I mentioned.
It prompted me to get out the book again.

Last edited by JohnB on Sun Apr 07, 2024 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Philip Morten]

It seems that the question has resolved itself.

If you go back to page 1 of this thread, a couple of posters were adamant about the A-36 should bear the Mustang name.

Reading some posts, including one from myself, it it apparent that at one time the NMUSAF called the A-36 the Apache.

I just went back to their website, which as you might expect been revised a few times since 2012....it now reads:
A-36 Mustang
Also nicknamed the "Apache” or “Invader," the A-36A dive bomber was the first US Army Air Forces version of the Mustang, officially developed for Britain in 1940. The first A-36 flew in September 1942, and North American Aviation completed production of 500 A-36As in March 1943".

But they haven't completly fixed the issue, on the page about the P-51 at https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit ... d-mustang/ we see

In April 1942 the USAAF ordered an attack version equipped with dive brakes and bomb racks, the A-36 Apache. A-36s entered combat in June 1943 and served in North Africa, Italy and India.

--
Philip Morten

[ErrolC]

It seems that the question has resolved itself.
...
One interesting point, back in 2012 I mentioned I had a 1944 book which mentions the "Invader" name for the A-36. Australian author James Knightly (not seen here as often nowadays), asked for a scan, which I sent.
Until this thread resurfaced, I had completely forgotten about the topic, scan or the old book I mentioned.
It prompted me to get out the book again.

That's James D Kightly. Now Commissioning Editor at https://vintageaviationnews.com/

[Richard W.]

This issue seems to be settled, but just for the sake of completeness here is a passage from Ernie Pyle's 1944 book, "Brave Men." He spent some time living with 12th Air Force A-36 pilots in Italy and reported for his newspaper column.

The group I was with had been in combat six months. During that time
they had flown ten thousand sorties, fired more than a million rounds of 5O-
caliber ammunition, and dropped three million pounds of bombs. That’s more
than the entire Eighth Air Force in England dropped in its first year of
operation.
Our dive bombers were known as A-36 Invaders. Actually they were
nothing more than the famous P-51 Mustang equipped with diving brakes. For
a long time they didn’t have any name at all, and then one day in Sicily one of
the pilots of the squadron said, “Why don’t we call them Invaders, since we’re
invading?”
The name was carried home in newspaper dispatches, and soon even the
company that made them called them Invaders. The pilot who originated the
name was Lieutenant Robert B. Walsh, of Felt, Idaho. I didn’t meet him
because he had completed his allotted missions and gone back to the States.
His younger brother was then a replacement pilot in the same squadron.

[junkman9096]

In the book "Mustang: the Untold Story" by Matthew Willis the author dedicates 3 full pages in a sub-chapter entitled 'What's in a name'. TL:DR-the USAAF didn't officially name their planes until after entry into WWII referring it just as the P-51. The British referred to the P-51 as the Mustang and for the sake of commonality the USAAF took up that moniker. Apache was a marketing effort by NA that seeped into the stories about the plane but it was never official.

O/T: I highly recommend that book. It specifically is directed at Allison-engined Mustangs all the way from prototype to F-82. Easy to read and heavily footnoted and debunks a number of "everybody knows that" aspects of its history.

[Noha307]

TL:DR-the USAAF didn't officially name their planes until after entry into WWII referring it just as the P-51.

FWIW, the list was promulgated in January 1943.

[Randy Haskin]

I'm amused thinking about future aviation enthusiasts debating if the B-1 was a "Lancer" or a "Bone". If the F-16 was a "Fighting Falcon" or a "Viper". ad nauseam.

[JohnB]

I'm amused thinking about future aviation enthusiasts debating if the B-1 was a "Lancer" or a "Bone". If the F-16 was a "Fighting Falcon" or a "Viper". ad nauseam.

Not quite the same thing since " Bone" and "Viper" have never been presented as the official names for the types.

I was at a B-1 base for years, and didn't often hear "Bone". I think it's used more by guys who want to sound cool than the guys (and women) who fly and work on them who are cool.

But there are stories to tell of the names of modern types, and I'm sure stories about future types.

In the '90s at HQ AFMC, I heard plenty of tales about the naming of the F-22 (then called the Lightning II) and the T-46 Javelina.

Naming new aircraft is a p!ace where history/money/ego/politics-PC issues-diplomacy converge.

Last edited by JohnB on Mon Apr 08, 2024 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[junkman9096]

And at the end of its service life the USAF gave in and named the F-111 the Aardvark.

[Noha307]

I'm amused thinking about future aviation enthusiasts debating if the B-1 was a "Lancer" or a "Bone". If the F-16 was a "Fighting Falcon" or a "Viper". ad nauseam.

I mean, there's not really any question with those. As I like to put it, the former are the official names and the latter are the ones that everyone actually uses. (There was actually an article about these unofficial names in the July 1968 issue of USNI Proceedings.)

Both "Fighting Falcon" and "Stratofortress" failed for the same reason: they were too long. As a rule of thumb, if your nickname has four syllables, it is going to be replaced. (By the way, if you want to know who's responsible for the F-16's monstrosity of a moniker, blame TSgt. Joseph A. Kurdell.[1])