Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:28 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Click here to goto Amazon.com


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:45 am 
Offline
Group Captain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:06 am
Posts: 800
Location: Virginia
Is there a half size Martin flying boat in a museum in the Baltimore area? Was a factory proof of concept in WW2. I think.

_________________
http://www.vafm.org/

http://www.airpower-aviation.com/

http://www.barnstormingmovie.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:53 am 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:51 pm
Posts: 4294
Location: Cheshire, CT
The Smithsonian had a small, but smaller than 1/2 size mariner in the buildings at the Garber facility. It had a motor and props and I think it was built to test the hull on water. Not sure if it actually flew. It is probably that one.
Jerry

_________________
"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:04 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 3:45 pm
Posts: 1704
http://media.photobucket.com/image/mart ... 47fff3.jpg


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:27 am 
Offline
Wing Commander
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 7:28 pm
Posts: 272
Location: Out of my mind...
^^ Now that would be fun! :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:41 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:06 pm
Posts: 1448
Location: Baltimore MD
Close, but no flying boat. What we have here in the city are:

1. The "Tadpole Clipper" which was the small proof of hull for the PBM Mariner- it is powered by an early Martin 4 cylinder engine and is about the size of a Cessna 150. It is located in the Museum of Science and Industry near Fort McHenry.

2. The mockup of a Martin 130 fuselage and wing section that Disney built for a movie. This is in the GLM Museum.

3. The museum also has the original wind-tunnel model for the Mars. Sitting in a yard nearby also owned by the museum are the remains of the rear fuselage and tail of the P6M. Seamaster.

We need a flying boat in Baltimore again!

_________________
REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:38 am 
Offline
Group Captain
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:46 pm
Posts: 522
Location: CYYJ
mike furline wrote:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/martin%20mariner%20hull%20test%20aircraft/Coridano/b347fff3.jpg


Martin 162-A
Aerofiles wrote:
162-A 1937 = 1pChwMFb; one 120hp Martin (Chevrolet) 333 belt-driving two propellers on the wings. 1/4-scale prototype of USN XPBM-1 Mariner for use in wind-tunnel and other testing. POP: 1, which flew successfully [NX19168]. Donated to Smithsonian Institution, it gathered dust there until a recent restoration by volunteers; transferred to Baltimore Museum of Industry for display.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:08 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:27 am
Posts: 1754
Location: Eastern Washington
US aircraft makers never adopted the small scale POC-concept like the UK did.
In the UK they had the AVRO 707 series, a smal scale Short Stirling and a few others.
Anyone know why?

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:46 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am
Posts: 9453
Time for some enterprising individual to build one like the guy building the 1/2 scale B-17!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:00 pm 
Offline
Group Captain
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 741
Location: Chandler, AZ
Just a guess would be the availability of the NACA large scale wind tunnels at Ames that would allow for testing models and airplanes to 50' span. The RAE tunnels at Farnborough were considerably smaller, so reduced scale POC aircraft would make more sense.

I don't think anyone ever put together a wake tank big enough, or fast enough, to test flying boat hulls, so reduced scale models there is the only way to go.

_________________
Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:40 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:27 am
Posts: 1754
Location: Eastern Washington
shrike wrote:
Just a guess would be the availability of the NACA large scale wind tunnels at Ames that would allow for testing models and airplanes to 50' span. The RAE tunnels at Farnborough were considerably smaller, so reduced scale POC aircraft would make more sense.

I don't think anyone ever put together a wake tank big enough, or fast enough, to test flying boat hulls, so reduced scale models there is the only way to go.



Great answer, thanks.

RE: Flying boats and amphibs...any physics majors out there who could answer whether results from a reduced scale flying boat have to take into account the fact that water drops, waves, etc are not reduced in size?

Another reduced scale POC: the Japanese modified a Grumman Albatross into a POC for the Shin Meiwa series.

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:47 pm 
Offline
Group Captain
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 741
Location: Chandler, AZ
At the Pima museum is the 'Petulant Porpoise', a Grumman Widgeon with interchangeable hull sections for hull research.

By the time you start working with large scale models, water is predictably 'scalable'. Hydrodynamics has been studied longer than aerodynamics, so there are fewer big surprises.

_________________
Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:41 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am
Posts: 9453
A fluid is a fluid is a fluid. That ought to be scalable using Reynolds number...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:51 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:11 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: Damascus, MD
The "Tadpole Clipper" is actually a 3/8th scale model of the PBM. Unlike the production variant, it has a flat tail instead of the "V" tail. Apparently, at one point, it was fitted with the V tail and then reverted back to the flat one, but no one could locate the second tail. Even though it is reported differently, the volunteer who led the restoration effort told me it is powered by a Chevrolet engine.

The volunteer that led the effort to restore the Tadpole Clipper is now one of the core guys at Jack Kosko's facility. (Gene is his first name...not sure of the last) I'm not sure, but this may have been one of the early projects Jack was involved in prior to their first TBM restoration. The crew up at Jack's referred to it simply as "the seaplane".

I saw it the first time I performed at the Museum of Industry in the late 90s. I was blown away that it was still extant.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:54 pm 
Offline
Group Captain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:06 am
Posts: 800
Location: Virginia
The Tadpole Clipper is the one I was thinking of. We were at the Martin Museum and Lockheed Martin HQ this weekend with the 1911 Curtiss pusher masquerading as a 1912 Martin for the L-M centennial, and none of the museum guys knew about the little flying boat.

_________________
http://www.vafm.org/

http://www.airpower-aviation.com/

http://www.barnstormingmovie.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:48 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:11 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: Damascus, MD
I talked to Gene today about the Tadpole Clipper when I was up at Jack's place working on the TBM (pics to follow soon!). He cleared up a few things for me:

1. The "Tadpole Clipper" is still currently owned by the NASM but on display at the Baltimore Museum of Industry. The group that restored it found it on the floor at Garber and offered to fix it up. It was restored in a warehouse on Key Highway in Baltimore near the BMI. This was Gene's first venture into restoring aircraft and did not have anything to do with Jack or the TBMs.

2. The engine was of Chevrolet design, but built by Martin. It is an air-cooled eight cylinder engine installed inverted in the aircraft.
There is ducting on top of the fuselage for cooling.

3. Wingspan is 47 feet. Keep in mind it is a 3/8ths scale model. Compare that to the full-sized TBM's wingspan of 54 feet.

4. It apparently did fly a few times as a test bed, however, it was never flown post-restoration.

5. I was correct about the different tails being attached to the plane. By the time they found evidence of the plane having the V-tail which was later incorporated into the production PBM, the restoration had already past the point where they could change the horizontal tail.

It's definitely a nifty little bird and the Baltimore Museum of Industry is a pretty cool museum to visit. It's worth the side trip for anyone venutring to the D.C. / Baltimore area.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aerovin, Bing [Bot] and 19 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group