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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:39 pm 
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This is direct from a warbird expert in Virginia. You just need to read the smoke, and it will tell you exactly what will happen at the Fighter Factory.....
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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:06 am 
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Forgotten Field wrote:
This is direct from a warbird expert in Virginia. You just need to read the smoke, and it will tell you exactly what will happen at the Fighter Factory.....
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Oh, very nice! Thanks, Forgotten Field, I'll update my title directly- what a wonderful thing to wake up to, the Oracle of WIX himself deeming me a "Warbird Expert"!!!

Maybe I should get business cards and a t-shirt and maybe a crown... oh wait, I'd have to challenge him for it. Nah, I'll stick with the t-shirt.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:42 am 
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lmritger wrote:
I'm not arguing, I'm stating- there's a difference.


OK, I'll "state" too.

Quote:
What all these people clamoring to see the planes go elsewhere apparently don't realize is how much of a negative effect this sort of constant carping from the sidelines has on the people that do the work and put in the hours, and what sort of knock-on effect this sort of doomsaying horsehockey has on the Museum overall.


Someday, I wish someone would explain this type of statement. If they know it's just internet horsehockey, how does it have such a negative or knock-on effect?

Quote:
I live here, as does Liza and Travis...


Which makes your selfish interest in keeping the planes near where you live very understandable. Just don't make out like it's more selfish when people who don't live there express a preference for seeing them somewhere else.

Quote:
And yet now that things are finally returning to normal, and despite the numerous positive updates that have been posted from people including myself who have been told the information face-to-face, there are still people who selfishly want to see the collection broken up and dispersed to the four winds- and for what? What do these people get out of it, beyond some sort of macabre self-satisfaction that they helped heap dirt on one of the finest collections in the US, if not the entire world?


Some on this forum are concerned and/or pessimistic about the future of the collection and are allowing for the possibility that things that have been told to people face-to-face are not the whole story or are overly optimistic.

Your last sentence, about people getting some kind of satisfaction out of heaping dirt on a warbird collection, just shows a complete uncomprehension of what people are saying. Nodoby here has any interest in doing that, and you should know better than to insult them by saying so.

I support the collection and am grateful to Mr. Yagen as well as to the generous trade-school students, or the federal student loan program, or whoever it is who ultimately supplied the funds to build it. It is nice to have a large collection, even if static, in that area, and I am not one of those people who thinks of static planes as "dead", "rotting" or somehow worthless. Still, I'm in league with those who regret that so many fine airworthy collections have been indefinitely grounded when their patrons lost the interest or means to keep them operating. It has left us with museums full of planes that are not restored authentically enough to be truly museum-worthy static exhibits, largely because of the compromises needed to make them fly; yet they don't fly.

Finally, as far as what is our "business" to talk about, I like to think of it in terms of sports teams. I suppose the Yankees and Rangers are none of "my business" since I don't own the teams; I just buy a ticket once in a while. Still, their owners campaign them in public and want people to be fans -- to root for and even against them. When they trade players, I believe that's part of what I am supposed to be interested in as a fan. When you open your airplane collection to the public, display it at airshows, publish NEWSletters about it (news = everyone's business), you welcome comment, including criticism. If you don't want comment, you can lock the doors and keep your business private.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:11 am 
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Thanks you August for the post, you said it better than I could have. I'm of the opinion that there are a number of folks on this board that are just looking for drama and where none really exists they must try and create it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:16 am 
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Forgotten Field wrote:
This is direct from a warbird expert in Virginia. You just need to read the smoke, and it will tell you exactly what will happen at the Fighter Factory.....
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I think that is what happened to one of my postings on this thread- it went up in smoke!


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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:52 am 
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k5083 wrote:
lmritger wrote:
I'm not arguing, I'm stating- there's a difference.


OK, I'll "state" too.

Quote:
What all these people clamoring to see the planes go elsewhere apparently don't realize is how much of a negative effect this sort of constant carping from the sidelines has on the people that do the work and put in the hours, and what sort of knock-on effect this sort of doomsaying horsehockey has on the Museum overall.


Someday, I wish someone would explain this type of statement. If they know it's just internet horsehockey, how does it have such a negative or knock-on effect?

Quote:
I live here, as does Liza and Travis...


Which makes your selfish interest in keeping the planes near where you live very understandable. Just don't make out like it's more selfish when people who don't live there express a preference for seeing them somewhere else.

Quote:
And yet now that things are finally returning to normal, and despite the numerous positive updates that have been posted from people including myself who have been told the information face-to-face, there are still people who selfishly want to see the collection broken up and dispersed to the four winds- and for what? What do these people get out of it, beyond some sort of macabre self-satisfaction that they helped heap dirt on one of the finest collections in the US, if not the entire world?


Some on this forum are concerned and/or pessimistic about the future of the collection and are allowing for the possibility that things that have been told to people face-to-face are not the whole story or are overly optimistic.

Your last sentence, about people getting some kind of satisfaction out of heaping dirt on a warbird collection, just shows a complete uncomprehension of what people are saying. Nodoby here has any interest in doing that, and you should know better than to insult them by saying so.

I support the collection and am grateful to Mr. Yagen as well as to the generous trade-school students, or the federal student loan program, or whoever it is who ultimately supplied the funds to build it. It is nice to have a large collection, even if static, in that area, and I am not one of those people who thinks of static planes as "dead", "rotting" or somehow worthless. Still, I'm in league with those who regret that so many fine airworthy collections have been indefinitely grounded when their patrons lost the interest or means to keep them operating. It has left us with museums full of planes that are not restored authentically enough to be truly museum-worthy static exhibits, largely because of the compromises needed to make them fly; yet they don't fly.

Finally, as far as what is our "business" to talk about, I like to think of it in terms of sports teams. I suppose the Yankees and Rangers are none of "my business" since I don't own the teams; I just buy a ticket once in a while. Still, their owners campaign them in public and want people to be fans -- to root for and even against them. When they trade players, I believe that's part of what I am supposed to be interested in as a fan. When you open your airplane collection to the public, display it at airshows, publish NEWSletters about it (news = everyone's business), you welcome comment, including criticism. If you don't want comment, you can lock the doors and keep your business private.

August


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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:13 pm 
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And my "statement" as well.

k5083 wrote:
Finally, as far as what is our "business" to talk about, I like to think of it in terms of sports teams. I suppose the Yankees and Rangers are none of "my business" since I don't own the teams; I just buy a ticket once in a while. Still, their owners campaign them in public and want people to be fans -- to root for and even against them. When they trade players, I believe that's part of what I am supposed to be interested in as a fan. When you open your airplane collection to the public, display it at airshows, publish NEWSletters about it (news = everyone's business), you welcome comment, including criticism. If you don't want comment, you can lock the doors and keep your business private.

August


Not sure I agree with your analogy above in parallel with Yagan's collection but I do support your theory. I concur that if you are going to operate a "public" enterprise there certainly are aspects of that enterprise that are open to "public" discussion, scrutiny and criticism. But to speculate on the operations of someone's business, no matter public or private, shows a lack of understanding and responsibility. It's one thing to know facts that are true and correct, but quite another to speculate on matters one does not know. And just to make my comments perfectly clear, I am by no means directing these comments at any particular member, there's been a broad range of statements in this thread alone that have very little, if any, actual facts to stand by. And as for a "public" business that warrants comment and criticism, yes there are many aspects of that business that are open for public scrutiny, but there also are many aspects that are not. The "public" aspects of a public business are, and should be, open to public discussion of course, but there should be no misunderstanding that there are private aspects of a public business that are, and should, stay private. Hence the "no one's business"

I believe there is plenty of conversation about Yagan's business that IS warranted for open discussion but when it turns to speculating whether the man could be going to jail for fraudulent behavior (as one example in this thread pointed towards) that's when it becomes not an open mature conversation, but pure nonsense. There's no proof for or against such accusations of fraud so any speculation of such is nothing more than irresponsible.

As for the conversation whether the collection should / could/ will / will not be broken up further, until there is real concrete information from those who actually know better, the pessimistic attitude displayed a few times here is really not worth posting IMO. So far (from the outside) things look to be stabling out at the museum and I personally would like nothing else but for that pattern to continue. Not for me to know and not my business if this pattern continues or folds, but I would rather support the effort with a positive attitude that the museum will rebound and strive for what the original goals seemed to be and that is of a "flying" museum, not a static museum.

Quote:
I'm of the opinion that there are a number of folks on this board that are just looking for drama and where none really exists they must try and create it.


Perhaps! but I would tend to believe there are some passionate and dedicated supporters of the museum, albeit who may show a bit extra emotion toward this discussion than most, but that they certain have better things to do than stir up drama. I would tend to believe you would be just as passionate if you had an investment on their level.

Opinions I support, as long as those opinions are reasonable and responsible and that's an overview not directed towards most of the opinions in this conversation. Speculation has no place here or anywhere for that matter.

"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."

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Last edited by Mark Allen M on Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:39 pm 
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First off, let me thank you for the well thought out reply, sincerely. I'll respond in a similar manner.

k5083 wrote:
lmritger wrote:
I'm not arguing, I'm stating- there's a difference.


OK, I'll "state" too.

Quote:
What all these people clamoring to see the planes go elsewhere apparently don't realize is how much of a negative effect this sort of constant carping from the sidelines has on the people that do the work and put in the hours, and what sort of knock-on effect this sort of doomsaying horsehockey has on the Museum overall.


Someday, I wish someone would explain this type of statement. If they know it's just internet horsehockey, how does it have such a negative or knock-on effect?


Because this sort of message traffic gets picked up, seized upon and repeated by the media, and once it's out in the papers and trade journals, it creates a built-in headwind against which the organization must fight. It makes the jobs of the people who work there that much more difficult. Do people have a RIGHT to engage in such discussion? Oh, absolutely... Voltaire's quote seems appropriate here ("I may not agree with a word you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"). The problem is, it's not just about airplanes. It's about the people who work there, the people whose livelihoods depend in one way or another upon the continued good health of the Museum... and that health depends in large part upon whether there is a collection to display or not.


k5083 wrote:
Quote:
I live here, as does Liza and Travis...


Which makes your selfish interest in keeping the planes near where you live very understandable. Just don't make out like it's more selfish when people who don't live there express a preference for seeing them somewhere else.


I mentioned that in the spirit of full disclosure, August. Obviously I have a selfish interest in the collection remaining here and remaining intact. I would not be impacted *financially* by the dissolution of the collection- lots and lots of other people would though, and it would represent a significant loss to our region as well.


k5083 wrote:
Quote:
And yet now that things are finally returning to normal, and despite the numerous positive updates that have been posted from people including myself who have been told the information face-to-face, there are still people who selfishly want to see the collection broken up and dispersed to the four winds- and for what? What do these people get out of it, beyond some sort of macabre self-satisfaction that they helped heap dirt on one of the finest collections in the US, if not the entire world?


Some on this forum are concerned and/or pessimistic about the future of the collection and are allowing for the possibility that things that have been told to people face-to-face are not the whole story or are overly optimistic.

Your last sentence, about people getting some kind of satisfaction out of heaping dirt on a warbird collection, just shows a complete uncomprehension of what people are saying. Nodoby here has any interest in doing that, and you should know better than to insult them by saying so.


I'm not so sure I agree with your optimistic views here. Ever since this surfaced, there seems to have been a certain element almost rooting for the place to fail. Yes, it's fair to be concerned, particularly back when all this unfolded- those of us who live around here were far more concerned than most, with the staff and employees most affected. As I've come to know people out at the facility though, the long-range impact of those lingering doubts has come more clearly into focus as I noted earlier. I fully admit I'm effectively a nobody in this saga- I'm an interested and highly engaged enthusiast with some friends who have been directly impacted by the events of the past few months. But knowing those good folks has also given me a bit of a closer insight than most average observers, and I've tried to share the positive outlook here only to be either a) ignored or b) mocked. Unproductive as it is, I can handle mockery and will give as good as I get, but what's most irritating to me is that this ongoing focus on the *aircraft* ignores the fate of the *people*. I hope that makes sense.


k5083 wrote:
I support the collection and am grateful to Mr. Yagen as well as to the generous trade-school students, or the federal student loan program, or whoever it is who ultimately supplied the funds to build it. It is nice to have a large collection, even if static, in that area, and I am not one of those people who thinks of static planes as "dead", "rotting" or somehow worthless. Still, I'm in league with those who regret that so many fine airworthy collections have been indefinitely grounded when their patrons lost the interest or means to keep them operating. It has left us with museums full of planes that are not restored authentically enough to be truly museum-worthy static exhibits, largely because of the compromises needed to make them fly; yet they don't fly.


You surely are not alone when looking at a place like the Museum of Flight or what have you, and thinking "Boy, wouldn't it be great to see X fly"... I had that same thought looking at the Oscar up in Seattle. Thing is, even a fully static museum environment can be a tremendous asset to the historical aviation community, provided it's run and staffed by people with a passion for the subject and who do their best to share that passion as widely as possible.

k5083 wrote:
Finally, as far as what is our "business" to talk about, I like to think of it in terms of sports teams. I suppose the Yankees and Rangers are none of "my business" since I don't own the teams; I just buy a ticket once in a while. Still, their owners campaign them in public and want people to be fans -- to root for and even against them. When they trade players, I believe that's part of what I am supposed to be interested in as a fan. When you open your airplane collection to the public, display it at airshows, publish NEWSletters about it (news = everyone's business), you welcome comment, including criticism. If you don't want comment, you can lock the doors and keep your business private.


Ref. my earlier comment about Voltaire... all I want is for people to just THINK for a second about the folks who work there before joining the "Sell'Em All!" brigade.

Regards,

Lynn


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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:06 pm 
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I have an actual question for the WIX braintrust. How many aircraft are (or were) part of Jerry Yagen's incredible collection which would not exist today, or would exist only as wreckage, if Jerry had not taken them on and had them restored? This includes fliers and statics. It's gotta be a bunch. And I know that he has a number of wrecked airframes in storage which could form the basis for future restorations.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Thanks for the thoughtful replies Lynn and Mark. I'm still a little dubious on how/when the criticism on an internet forum get picked up by media and create any real problems for the organization, but OK, at least now I know what you meant. As far as not being thoughtless and irresponsible and thinking about all the personnel involved, well, that is holding us up to a much higher standard than callers about the Yankees on sports talk radio, but fine, standards are a good thing.

Dean: Nobody can really pretend to know the answer to your question. What is clear about Yagen, compared with some other collectors, is that he does not just buy flyable airplanes on the market, which probably wouldn't increase the total number flying. He also sources projects and funds their restoration, probably spending a goodly amount more on them than they will be worth when finished. Guys like that get an extra star in my book. It's always possible that there might be someone else out there who would have sourced and restored any given project if he didn't, but there's no way to know. One could probably walk through MAM and review his project list and pretty easily identify the airframes that would be relatively unlikely to exist, in the form we see them, without Yagen. My sense is that it would include at least a dozen machines of exceptional rarity, which is a nice legacy for anyone, no matter who ends up owning the planes in the future. Ones that come to mind right away are the Mossie, the genuine 190 and 109, and the MiG-3, for openers.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:38 pm 
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Good sentiments and thoughts here, k5083. Flagellating others isn't honest work or productive. WIX works best when we share information, not public beatings. If someone has gone to the great expense and trouble of very accurately restoring machinery as has Yagen, it's difficult for me to grasp why others would not comprehend from this work the strength of his convictions and sense of responsibility towards this purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:56 pm 
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K5DH wrote:
I have an actual question for the WIX braintrust. How many aircraft are (or were) part of Jerry Yagen's incredible collection which would not exist today, or would exist only as wreckage, if Jerry had not taken them on and had them restored? This includes fliers and statics. It's gotta be a bunch. And I know that he has a number of wrecked airframes in storage which could form the basis for future restorations.

A considerable number, WIX thread listing the collection that can be interpolated per your question http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.o ... 0&start=30

Yagen seemed to have taken a few pages from the play book of other collectors/restorers such as Kermit Weeks or David Tallichet by sourcing crashed/basketcase original aircraft and rebuilding them. The Fighter Collection might be the closest paradigm to Yagen's work. Yagen stepped up and rapidly filled a considerable void left by Kermit and Tallichet, doing what they couldn't or weren't able to do any longer.

One aspect that I find interesting is that Yagen's approach seems more open-minded with respect to creating what we might call here on WIX "reproductions", as in the case of the FW-190A and FW-190D that he has, or the WWI aircraft. All of these are high fidelity reproductions, but fill a void of previously rare on non-flying aircraft. He's up front in representing them as such. It gives the public the opportunity to learn and see something that might not otherwise be available to experience first hand. That took vision, enthusiasm and money to pursue.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:36 pm 
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The aircraft that were listed on Platinums web site have been taken down.


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 Post subject: Re: Fighter Factory
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:23 pm 
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The Piper J3 Cub has been moved into the Fighter Factory hanger
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A "new" Dragon Rapide. Will be a while before it's together.
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SE5a in the background with part of Dragon Rapide in foreground left
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