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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:21 pm 
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So, as I’ve previously stated, based my theory of Unit numbers correlating to the Assembly Number in linear production and defined in my post of Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:07 am:
Gunners Tail Enclosure, ASSY 3-14335-13 UNIT 142, owned by Taigh Ramey.
This tail came from the Boeing Renton Washington Plant, B-29A-15-BN block of production, somewhere "around" the very end of the Block 15 of production, around B-29A s/n 42-93966 (give or take a few serial numbers).
7231 B-29A-1-BN 42-93824 to 7250 B-29A-1-BN 42-93843 = 20 aircraft
7251 B-29A-5-BN 42-93844 to 7280 B-29A-5-BN 42-93873 = 30 aircraft
7281 B-29A-10-BN 42-93874 to 7330 B-29A-10-BN 42-93923 = 50 aircraft
7331 B-29A-15-BN 42-93924 to 7380 B-29A-15-BN 42-93973 = 50 aircraft
So I believe this tail is the 142nd tail produced at Boeing Renton, which should have been added to a B-29A in the last part of the Block 15 of production, around B-29A s/n 42-93966.

So, my theory DOES seems to work, with the added data from B-29A manual AN 01-20EJ-4A, provided by Trevor. The unit number is the linear production number of the tail gunner enclosure.

Again, more physical data is still needed for additional proof of my theory.

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Van
Kosovo, Afghanistan (x2) and Iraq Campaign Veteran
B-29 42-24791 "Big Time Operator"
C-47A 43-15137 "7H" Normandy/Holland Vet
SNJ-5B S/N 84947
UC-45F 43-35764 Cockpit
PT-26A 42-71104
LNE-1 S/N 31556
CG-15A Cockpit
CG-4A Cockpit (x2) and fuselage
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:30 pm 
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Quest Master wrote:
Trevor, thank you for finally conceding that you do not have the a manual that states the exact assembly numbers for Assemby 3-14335 (and revisions) for Boeing Witchita, Bell or Martin. Finally! That was a long dialog for you to finally get to that point!


Hi Van,

I've stated that twice already from the beginning, going back days ago? But no worries though buddy! This thread was getting confusing with all of the replies! :D


Quest Master wrote:
So, here are some part numbers, if you want to look them up (written exactly as they are stamped or cast) in the unpainted tail: 9-4870-1 BOEING; 12-658 50; 14-3268-5; 1-27552; 3-21842-1; BOEING-F 15-10508.


I'll check 'em out! :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:21 am 
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Here's some information that might muddy the waters a little. I'm looking at engineering drawing 3-14335. This is from a microfilmed set which is documented in T.O. 01-20EJ-160, dated 30 August 1945, "Index of Drawings on Microfilm for Aircraft Model B-29 Series". The actual title block text is "Body Inst - Tail Section 45", which is a slight disagreement with the "Body Assy" text in the short image in an earlier post. The drawing is really a list of all the engineering drawings that can go into Tail Section 45, but not all of the drawings are used. There are several columns to the left of the list(s) with check marks for the drawings associated with that column. The bottom of the columns have dash numbers, which are only even numbers and run from -2 to -18. An associated S/N table shows which S/N's have which dash numbers. The only S/N's listed are for REBAC (Renton) and WIBAC (Wichita). To compare to the short image: S/N 42-93824 to 42-93873 uses -10 drawings and S/N 42-93874 & on uses -12 drawings. The WIBAC S/N 42-24720 & on use -14 drawings. Maybe someone can explain why the document calls for -11 and -13 instead of -10 and -12 called out by 3-14335. BTW, the drawing is revision N, dated 2-14-45.

FYI, here are the title blocks for the previously mentioned drawings:

9-4870, ,Bracket---Rudder lock
12-658, 1,Enclosure Inst---Tail gunner
14-3268, 1,Frame Inst---Sta 1161
1-27552, ,Ring---Flange reinf
15-10508, ,Support---Tail turret

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:02 pm 
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EAIAnalog wrote:
Maybe someone can explain why the document calls for -11 and -13 instead of -10 and -12 called out by 3-14335. BTW, the drawing is revision N, dated 2-14-45.


Hi Larry, thank you for posting that information! To answer your question, the B-29A parts catalog does indeed list the -10 and -12's too. Does your information confirm that Boeing-Wichita B-29s did not use the -13 tail compartments?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:23 am 
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More tail data has been collected! This is for B-29-90-BW 44-87779, Craft Number 12582 "Legal Eagle II" produced at Boeing, Wichita, Kansas. Currently on display at the South Dakota Air and Space Museum.
B-29-90-BW 44-87779 was the 1,435th B-29 produced at Boeing Wichita, Kansas. She has the tail serial number 1460. This fits perfectly with my theory that the Tail Unit or Serial Number is the linear production number of the tail at the factory. The tails were not mated "exactly" with a specific B-29, but rather, this shows the block of production that they would have been added to a B-29 in that production block.
Production Block 90, Wichita Kansas:
Craft Number 12537 B-29-90-BW 44-87734 to Craft Number 12586 B-29-90-BW 44-87783 = 50 Aircraft (1,440 B-29's produced, total, at this point in production at Boeing Wichita)
Craft Number 13587 B-29-90-BW 45-21693 to Craft Number 13636 B-29-90-BW 45-21742 = 50 Aircraft (1,490 B-29's produced, total, at this point in production at Boeing Wichita)

Tail data for B-29-90-BW 44-87779, Craft Number 12582 "Legal Eagle II" produced at Boeing, Wichita, Kansas (photo taken February 4th 2015):
Part Number 3-14335-992 (side note....this part number currently baffles me with the -992 suffix) :shock:
Contract Number AC 19673
Serial Number 1460
Image
B-29-90-BW 44-87779 was converted to a KB-29. This photo, taken at China Lake in 1968, shows the tail gunner enclosure without windows for modification to KB-29:
Image
And just to be clear, B-29-90-BW 44-87779 did have her original tail when she was removed from China Lake, so that there is no "theory" of tail switching during restoration, S/N 1460 is her original tail:
Image
and again:
Image
and during restoration:
Image

Still more data needs to be collected, but I feel very confident that the tail Unit Number and Serial Number for the B-29 tail enclosure is the linear production number of the tail AND relates exactly to a specific block of production for the B-29 and B-29A which can be used to trace an aircraft's identity.
More to follow! :drink3:

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Van
Kosovo, Afghanistan (x2) and Iraq Campaign Veteran
B-29 42-24791 "Big Time Operator"
C-47A 43-15137 "7H" Normandy/Holland Vet
SNJ-5B S/N 84947
UC-45F 43-35764 Cockpit
PT-26A 42-71104
LNE-1 S/N 31556
CG-15A Cockpit
CG-4A Cockpit (x2) and fuselage
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:55 pm 
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A really oddball dash number typically indicates that a part was either modified outside normal programs, or it was damaged during construction and non standard parts were created in the repair....ie it has one-off parts. There is also the possibility that it was partially completed as one dash number and due to various reasons, was completed out to another dash number specification. This information usually won't show up in anything but factory production records but there will be mention within the production record of the a/c it's installed in. It happens all the time, but the dash number rolls to the oddball numbers doesn't get shown on the id plate much anymore.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:22 am 
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Trevor -- I went back to the drawing and took a hard look (I should have done this earlier). The notation is confusing. Along the bottom of the columns are -12 and -14, but as you go up the column, there are check marks for some assemblies, but there are also -13 or -15 number entries in the column. And eventually there is a check mark for an entry that is called Body Assy -- Tail Section 45, which has either -13 (for the -12 column) or -15 (for the -14) column. There is no associated drawing number. I'm not sure what to make of this, but after sloshing around in the engineering drawings for awhile, I feel the Assy drawings concern putting something together, while Inst drawings seem to consist of collections of Assy drawings. So maybe this drawing is a way to combine an Assy drawing and an Inst drawing. The other Body Inst drawings have a similar notation behavior. At first blush I don't see any difference between the -13 or -15 component lists, which means that they didn't really need separate dash numbers for the section. Maybe the different dash numbers were just a way to separate the two production lines, possibly to keep track of change orders.

To answer your question: as I read it, Boeing Wichita would have had -15 on their tail section. It would help, somewhat, if we had the tail section dash number from a known Boeing Wichita manufactured airframe, and a similar check for a Boeing Renton airframe (or Martin Omaha also).

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:28 am 
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EAIAnalog wrote:
It would help, somewhat, if we had the tail section dash number from a known Boeing Wichita manufactured airframe, and a similar check for a Boeing Renton airframe (or Martin Omaha also).

That is exactly the purpose of this thread! :) I have been posting pictures of known B-29 Tail Enclosures and documenting them here for all three manufacturers.
Larry, is it possible for you to post a picture here of the page that you are looking at so I can further document my research?

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Van
Kosovo, Afghanistan (x2) and Iraq Campaign Veteran
B-29 42-24791 "Big Time Operator"
C-47A 43-15137 "7H" Normandy/Holland Vet
SNJ-5B S/N 84947
UC-45F 43-35764 Cockpit
PT-26A 42-71104
LNE-1 S/N 31556
CG-15A Cockpit
CG-4A Cockpit (x2) and fuselage
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:20 pm 
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Typically, the drawing arrangement is this

Aircraft Model Drawing
Section Assembly Drawing
Installation Drawing
Assembly Drawing
Individual Part Drawing...these can have Detail Part and Make From Drawings associated with them.


Changing any drawing can result in a part number roll, which cascades into Assembly, Installation and Section drawing rolls too. Once there are a significant number of changes, or a major sub assembly change, you will get a Block number roll. Often, when there are assembly rolls, there are new assembly numbers that can be direct replacements for older assemblies, so you end up with alternate applicability for some parts.

This is why we have lots of people at work that have the responsibility of keeping track of the changes and making sure the books are kept current. Until the last aircraft of a model is dropped from the inventory, the books are kept current by either the manufacturer or the owning service.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:08 am 
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Van and Trevor -- Here's a copy of 3-14335, courtesy of the B-29 restoration volunteers at the Museum of Flight in Seattle. This is a digitized version of the original microfilm, and the microfilmers took two shots to capture the drawing.

This shot has the S/N breakdown block on the left. It should agree with Trevor's manuals.
Image

and here is the title block shot. You can readily see the overlap between the two shots.

Image

Cvairwerks, thanks for the drawing tree information. Most drawings have a Used On block, which helps you move up the tree, but doesn't tell you much about how the tree is structured. So your comment helps a lot. The 3-14335 drawing must be a Section Assembly drawing because its Used On drawing number is 15-8045, whose title block is Final Assy -- B-29.

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Last edited by EAIAnalog on Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:17 pm 
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Here is a good example of reading dash number rollups into assemblies from the drawing. From

P/N 15-10715-9 Tube Installation goes directly into the 3-14335-2, -6 and -8 Body Assemblies.

It also rolls into the 15-10715-5, -11 and -17 Tube Installation.

The -5, -11 and -17 Tube Installations roll up into the -8, -10, -16, and -18 Body Assemblies.

In the next table is the applicability by production location and aircraft serial number. So, following the applicability information, we find that the 15-10715-9 Tube Installation was not used on the following aircraft:

XB-29, REBAC B-29s from s/n 42-93784 and on, along with WIBAC B-29's from 42-24720 and on.

Every other listed B-29 for the two production locations used the -9 Tube Installation. Multiply this be the thousands of parts in the aircraft and you see why manufacturers have scores of people that are constantly working to keep the IPB's up to date.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:43 am 
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Much thanks to EAIAnalog for this great clue for my continued work on Tail Enclosure research. It has answered a bunch of questions, but has now created a few new ones!!! :)

I have looked through the microfilm and am documenting the my research here:
The following has been extracted from Boeing Drawing: BODY INSTALLATION TAIL SECTION 45, Drawing 3-14335, original date December 16th 1942 and last update February 14th 1945.
I will note that this drawing is from Boeing, Seattle Washington. It includes details for both Boeing – Renton, Washington (REBAC on this drawing) and Boeing – Wichita, Kansas (WIBAC on this drawing).
Image
BODY INSTALLATION TAIL SECTION 45, Drawing 3-14335 states that the following revisions were documented in this drawing:
Image
Boeing Wichita, Kansas B-29 Production:
Part Number 3-14335 was used on:
XB-29
Part Number 3-14335-2 was used on:
C/N 3325 YB-29-BW 41-36954 to C/N 3338 YB-29-BW 41-36967 = 14 Aircraft
C/N 3339 B-29-1-BW 42-6205 to 3350 B-29-1-BW 42-6216 = 12 Aircraft
Part Number 3-14335-4 was used on:
C/N 3389 B-29-5-BW 42-6255 to C/N 3438 B-29-5-BW 42-6304 = 50 Aircraft
Part Number 3-14335-6 was used on:
C/N 3351 42-6217 to 3355 B-29-1-BW 42-6221, 3357 B-29-1-BW 42-6223, 3359 B-29-1-BW 42-6225, 3360 B-29-1-BW 42-6226, 3361 B-29-1-BW 42-6227, 3362 B-29-1-BW 42-6228, 3368 B-29-1-BW 42-6234, 3370 B-29-1-BW 42-6236, 3372 B-29-1-BW 42-6238, 3373 B-29-1-BW 42-6239, 3374 B-29-1-BW 42-6240, 3375 B-29-1-BW 42-6241, 3376 B-29-1-BW 42-6242, 3378 B-29-1-BW 42-6244 to 3388 B-29-1-BW 42-6254 = 23 Aircraft 1st block of production
Part Number 3-14335-8 was used on:
C/N 3489 B-29-15-BW 42-6355 to C/N 3538 B-29-15-BW 42-6404 = 50 Aircraft
C/N 3539 B-29-20-BW 42-6405 to C/N 3588 B-29-20-BW 42-6454 = 50 Aircraft
C/N 4081 B-29-25-BW 42-24420 to C/N 4130 B-29-25-BW 42-24469 = 50 Aircraft
C/N 4131 B-29-30-BW 42-24470 to C/N 4180 B-29-30-BW 42-24519 = 50 Aircraft
C/N 4181 B-29-35-BW 42-24520 to C/N 4230 B-29-35-BW 42-24569 = 100 Aircraft
Part Number 3-14335-14 was used on:
C/N 4381 B-29-45-BW 24720 and on
Part Number 3-14335-16 was used on:
C/N 4231 B-29-40-BW 42-24570 to C/N 4330 B-29-40-BW 42-24669 = 100 Aircraft
C/N 4331 B-29-45-BW 42-24670 to C/N 4380 B-29-45-BW 24719 = 50 Aircraft
Part Number 3-14335-18 was used on:
C/N 3439 B-29-10-BW 42-6305 to C/N 3488 B-29-10-BW 42-6354 = 50 Aircraft

Boeing Renton, Washington B-29A Production:
Part Number 3-14335-10 was used on:
C/N 7231 B-29A-1-BN 42-93824 to C/N 7250 B-29A-1-BN 42-93843 = 20 Aircraft
C/N 7251 B-29A-5-BN 42-93844 to C/N 7280 B-29A-5-BN 42-93873 = 30 Aircraft
Part Number 3-14335-12 was used on:
C/N 7281 B-29A-10-BN 42-93874 and on

Part Number 3-14553-8, 3-14553-12, 3-14553-14 and 3-14553-16 are cited on the drawing as being encompassed as a Revision M on this drawing dated January 10th 1944.

So this is a great clue and guideline for my research so far, but adds additional questions, for example that part number 3-14335-13 did actually exist, but is not reflected in this drawing. It does prove what revisions WERE used on specific blocks of production, and that the revision to the part 3-14335 was in fact not linear (-2, -4, -6, -8 etc) but was integrated at different non-linear blocks of production. This is consistent with my theory with Unit and Serial Numbers. So, Perfect! :)

This finding DOES PROVE my production theory, with: ASSY 3-14335-16 UNIT 528, Craft Number 11216, B-29A-45-BN 44-61739 (currently attached to “Jacks Hack” New England Air Museum B-29A-55-BN 44-61975), is in fact CORRECT!!!!!
:drink3:

Simply stated, this new finding clearly documents Part Number 3-14335 production up to February 14th 1945, for Boeing Wichita, Kansas produced B-29's up to C/N 4381 B-29-45-BW 24720 and Boeing Renton, Washington B-29A's produced up to C/N 7281 B-29A-10-BN 42-93874. This is AWESOME!!!! :)

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Thanks,
Van
Kosovo, Afghanistan (x2) and Iraq Campaign Veteran
B-29 42-24791 "Big Time Operator"
C-47A 43-15137 "7H" Normandy/Holland Vet
SNJ-5B S/N 84947
UC-45F 43-35764 Cockpit
PT-26A 42-71104
LNE-1 S/N 31556
CG-15A Cockpit
CG-4A Cockpit (x2) and fuselage
Follow QuestMasters on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/QuestMastersMuseum
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:20 pm 
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Quest Master wrote:
This finding DOES PROVE my production theory, with: ASSY 3-14335-16 UNIT 528, Craft Number 11216, B-29A-45-BN 44-61739 (currently attached to “Jacks Hack” New England Air Museum B-29A-55-BN 44-61975), is in fact CORRECT!!!!!
:drink3:

I just realized I didn't explain why the above statement is correct. Oops. I will explain.
This thread is about the Unit Number and Serial Number that is found in the tail section of the B-29, and my research to help identify the two B-29 tail sections that are believed to have come from China Lake NWS and identify the exact B-29 that they came from.

I believe that the Unit Number or Serial Number is the linear number that the tail was produced at the factory. By affiliating this to a Block of production, I can narrow down the identity of the two tails that I own, and also add to some B-29 production history to assist other historians for B-29 research.

So, here is the math, and proof that it does work based on the awesome B-29 and B-29A blueprint drawings provided by EAIAnalog.
Fact 1: Part Number 3-14335-16 was used on:
C/N 4231 B-29-40-BW 42-24570 to C/N 4330 B-29-40-BW 42-24669 = 100 Aircraft
C/N 4331 B-29-45-BW 42-24670 to C/N 4380 B-29-45-BW 24719 = 50 Aircraft
Fact 2: ASSY 3-14335-16 UNIT 528 is attached to “Jacks Hack” B-29A-55-BN 44-61975 New England Air Museum) It is believed that this tail came from Craft Number 11216, B-29A-45-BN 44-61739. I now believe this is not the factual, that this tail DID NOT come from a B-29A.

If you look at the production for BW - Boeing Wichita, Kansas:
- C/N 3339 B-29-1-BW 42-6205 to C/N 3355 B-29-1-BW 42-6221, C/N 3357 B-29-1-BW 42-6223, C/N 3359 B-29-1-BW 42-6225, C/N 3360 B-29-1-BW 42-6226, C/N 3361 B-29-1-BW 42-6227, C/N 3362 B-29-1-BW 42-6228, C/N 3368 B-29-1-BW 42-6234, C/N 3370 B-29-1-BW 42-6236, C/N 3372 B-29-1-BW 42-6238, C/N 3373 B-29-1-BW 42-6239, 3374 B-29-1-BW 42-6240, C/N 3375 B-29-1-BW 42-6241, C/N 3376 B-29-1-BW 42-6242 and C/N 3378 B-29-1-BW 42-6244 to C/N 3388 B-29-1-BW 42-6254 = 40 aircraft
- C/N 3389 B-29-5-BW 42-6255 to C/N 3438 B-29-5-BW 42-6304 = 50 aircraft
- C/N 3439 B-29-10-BW 42-6305 to C/N 3488 B-29-10-BW 42-6354 = 50 aircraft
- C/N 3489 B-29-15-BW 42-6355 to C/N 3538 B-29-15-BW 42-6404 = 50 aircraft
- C/N 3539 B-29-20-BW 42-6405 to C/N 3588 B-29-20-BW 42-6454 = 50 aircraft
- C/N 4081 B-29-25-BW 42-24420 to C/N 4130 B-29-25-BW 42-24469 = 50 aircraft
- C/N 4131 B-29-30-BW 42-24470 to C/N 4180 B-29-30-BW 42-24519 = 50 aircraft
- C/N 4181 B-29-35-BW 42-24520 to C/N 4230 B-29-35-BW 42-24569 = 100 aircraft
- C/N 4231 B-29-40-BW 42-24570 to C/N 4330 B-29-40-BW 42-24669 = 100 aircraft; 540 B-29's produced to this point

The the 528th tail produced at Boeing, Wichita would have been integrated into a B-29 the Block 40 of production at Boeing, Wichita.
A Tail Enclosure, with part number ASSY 3-14335-16 and UNIT 528, agrees with "Fact 1" that, that part number was only used in the Block 40 and Block 45 production at Boeing Wichita. ASSY 3-14335-16 UNIT 528 falls perfectly into Block 40 of production.

The Unit Number and Serial Number IS the linear production number of the Tail Enclosure.

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Thanks,
Van
Kosovo, Afghanistan (x2) and Iraq Campaign Veteran
B-29 42-24791 "Big Time Operator"
C-47A 43-15137 "7H" Normandy/Holland Vet
SNJ-5B S/N 84947
UC-45F 43-35764 Cockpit
PT-26A 42-71104
LNE-1 S/N 31556
CG-15A Cockpit
CG-4A Cockpit (x2) and fuselage
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:20 am 
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I'm adding this piece of information in this thread because it has been helpful to decipher contract numbers in my B-29 tail enclosure research for the three manufacturers of the B-29 and B-29A during WWII: Boeing, Martin and Bell. This is a helpful piece to figure out which manufacturer produced a part based solely on the contract number:
Image
I have taken this excerpt from Technical Order No. 00-25-30, 1 August 1945, Headquarters, Army Air Forces, Washington D.C., Unit Costs of Aircraft and Engines.
I will note that not ALL aircraft serial numbers are listed in this document, but I does show which contract were associated with some serial number blocks and this narrows down which contract numbers were associated with specific manufactures.

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Thanks,
Van
Kosovo, Afghanistan (x2) and Iraq Campaign Veteran
B-29 42-24791 "Big Time Operator"
C-47A 43-15137 "7H" Normandy/Holland Vet
SNJ-5B S/N 84947
UC-45F 43-35764 Cockpit
PT-26A 42-71104
LNE-1 S/N 31556
CG-15A Cockpit
CG-4A Cockpit (x2) and fuselage
Follow QuestMasters on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/QuestMastersMuseum
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:00 am 
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Now, to break away from from Boeing, Wichita Kansas produced B-29's and Boeing, Renton Washington produced B-29A's...I am going to add Martin, Omaha Nebraska produced B-29's Tail Enclosures to this thread.

Martin, Omaha Nebraska produced 536 B-29's during WWII.

Unlike the Tail Enclosure for Boeing (Wichita and Renton) the Tail Enclosure for the Martin produced B-29 WAS NOT produced by Martin. The Tail Enclosure for Martin Built B-29's was produced by Hudson and delivered to Martin for final assembly into the B-29. This page is taken from the Glenn L Martin Blueprint Book, July 1944 showing that Part 3-14335 was produced by Hudson:
Image
A known Martin built B-29 has been documented with the data plate in the Tail Enclosure:
B-29-36-MO 44-27297 "Bockscar" accepted 19 March 1945. This is the Tail Enclosure data plate in her tail:
Image
B-29-36-MO 44-27297 "Bockscar" data plate shows part number 3-14335-14, Contract Number W33-038-AC-117, Serial Number 239:
Image
The "unknown" black painted B-29 (converted to TB-29) in my collection, recovered from China Lake:
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This Martin (Hudson) produced Tail enclosure has the data plate with part number 3-14335-14, Contract Number W33-038-AC-117, Serial Number 377:
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I believe that this black painted tail is from: B-29-50-MO 44-86318, disposed of at China Lake:
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_________________
Thanks,
Van
Kosovo, Afghanistan (x2) and Iraq Campaign Veteran
B-29 42-24791 "Big Time Operator"
C-47A 43-15137 "7H" Normandy/Holland Vet
SNJ-5B S/N 84947
UC-45F 43-35764 Cockpit
PT-26A 42-71104
LNE-1 S/N 31556
CG-15A Cockpit
CG-4A Cockpit (x2) and fuselage
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Museum collection homepage: http://www.questmasters.us


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