C-47 WWII Factory Paint - production history, and questions

Quest Master · **Joined:** Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:42 pm **Posts:** 385

I am trying to compile some data on WWII C-47 Factory applied paint at the two WWII Douglas factories prior to the conclusion of WWII in 1945: Douglas Long Beach (DL), California and Oklahoma City (DK), Oklahoma.

Underside gray or grey (I am using both spellings so that the thread shows up for both in Google):
From what I have researched, two underside gray or grey colors were used on the C-47 during WWII factory production. The WWII ANA (Army-Navy Aircraft) color standard - 603 Flat Neutral Grey, referenced as post-WWII Federal Standard FS 36173 (early) and Federal Standard FS 36118 (later). Does anyone know the exact date of the cross-over use, applied in the factory during WWII?

Next question, there appears to be a specific application style that I have noted on how the underside gray or grey was painted. I am using the following production blocks for each factory as noted examples in period photos:
On the nose of the C-47, a nearly straight line of underside gray or grey is noted for aircraft produced at Douglas Long Beach (DL), California:
C-47A-80-DL (February 1944)
On the nose of the C-47, a very wavy line of underside gray or grey is noted for aircraft produced at Douglas Oklahoma City (DK), Oklahoma:
C-47A-15-DK (March 1944)

Any input would be appreciated.

AG pilot · **Joined:** Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:13 am **Posts:** 532

The Federal Standard System did not exist at that time. The FS numbers you refer to are probably someone's conversion or crossover from the older system. They are not the "exact" shade, but are likely pretty close.

Quest Master · **Joined:** Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:42 pm **Posts:** 385

I have edited the original posting with the WWII ANA (Army-Navy Aircraft) color standard "603 Flat Neutral Neutral Grey", since yes The Federal Standard 595C - Colors Used in Government Procurement, was developed in 1956. It was originally added to the initial thread as a point of reference for discussion about the cross over period of the application of the paint to the aircraft during production from a lighter shade to a darker shade. All of this information is being used for the restoration of a C-47A cockpit. Thanks!

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11281

For the L-5 and I'm sure others, the factory paint finishes were called out on the aircraft drawings. There were also Tech Orders for finish and markings after the aircraft were delivered.

flightsimer · **Posted:** Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:08 am

Quest Master wrote:

I am trying to compile some data on WWII C-47 Factory applied paint at the two WWII Douglas factories prior to the conclusion of WWII in 1945: Douglas Long Beach (DL), California and Oklahoma City (DK), Oklahoma.

Underside gray or grey (I am using both spellings so that the thread shows up for both in Google):
From what I have researched, two underside gray or grey colors were used on the C-47 during WWII factory production. The WWII ANA (Army-Navy Aircraft) color standard - 603 Flat Neutral Grey, referenced as post-WWII Federal Standard FS 36173 (early) and Federal Standard FS 36118 (later). Does anyone know the exact date of the cross-over use, applied in the factory during WWII?

Next question, there appears to be a specific application style that I have noted on how the underside gray or grey was painted. I am using the following production blocks for each factory as noted examples in period photos:
On the nose of the C-47, a nearly straight line of underside gray or grey is noted for aircraft produced at Douglas Long Beach (DL), California:
C-47A-80-DL (February 1944)
On the nose of the C-47, a very wavy line of underside gray or grey is noted for aircraft produced at Douglas Oklahoma City (DK), Oklahoma:
C-47A-15-DK (March 1944)

Any input would be appreciated.

Army Navy Aircraft color pallets replaced the Corps spec 3-1 in '43. It was with that change that the paint changes were made on paper, but in reality all older paints were used until stocks were depleted.

ANA 603 "neutral grey" is 36118. It is also the same color from the RAF's older color specs called "RAF extra dark sea grey/gray"

Spec 3-1 "neutral grey" is the FS36173

In reality, both of these colors would be 16118/16173. In the FS world, the first number identifies, flat (1) /Semi-gloss (2) / gloss (3) paint. Second number is the color family followed by the last three being the individual Shade.

The Olive drab also changed at the same time as the grey.

Quest Master · **Joined:** Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:42 pm **Posts:** 385

Any insight on the second question:
There appears to be a specific application style that I have noted on how the underside gray or grey was painted. I am using the following production blocks for each factory as noted examples in period photos:
On the nose of the C-47, a nearly straight line of underside gray or grey is noted for aircraft produced at Douglas Long Beach (DL), California:
C-47A-80-DL (February 1944)
On the nose of the C-47, a very wavy line of underside gray or grey is noted for aircraft produced at Douglas Oklahoma City (DK), Oklahoma:
C-47A-15-DK (March 1944)

Again, this question is specific to the C-47. I am trying to see if an aircraft can be linked to a specific factory by just this detail, because in a one month time period of February to March 1944, at the two separate factories, I have noted a very different painting style, and I believe this can be used to ID a C-47 DL from a C-47 DK if it has a straight painted underside grey or wavy painted underside grey.

k5083 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:23 am

flightsimer wrote:

ANA 603 "neutral grey" is 36118. It is also the same color from the RAF's older color specs called "RAF extra dark sea grey/gray"

First part is right, but EDSG is darker. I have seen 603 characterized as roughly equivalent to RAF Ocean Grey.

August

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11281

Even with the same drawing the manufacturing planning might have been slightly different from site to site or even the paint shop manager might have dictated some of the exact details.

JohnB · **Posted:** Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:28 pm

We all know that in 1944, USAAF tactical aircraft stopped being painted.

When did that occur for transports?
Certainly most C-54s were NMF as were some C-47s.

patelie · **Posted:** Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:57 am

Quest Master wrote:

Again, this question is specific to the C-47. I am trying to see if an aircraft can be linked to a specific factory by just this detail, because in a one month time period of February to March 1944, at the two separate factories, I have noted a very different painting style, and I believe this can be used to ID a C-47 DL from a C-47 DK if it has a straight painted underside grey or wavy painted underside grey.

I would say yes.. On all the pictures I have seen, DK were painted with a wave and DL with a straight line

Taigh Ramey · **Posted:** Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:57 pm

flightsimer wrote:

Army Navy Aircraft color pallets replaced the Corps spec 3-1 in '43. It was with that change that the paint changes were made on paper, but in reality all older paints were used until stocks were depleted.

ANA 603 "neutral grey" is 36118. It is also the same color from the RAF's older color specs called "RAF extra dark sea grey/gray"

Spec 3-1 "neutral grey" is the FS36173

In reality, both of these colors would be 16118/16173. In the FS world, the first number identifies, flat (1) /Semi-gloss (2) / gloss (3) paint. Second number is the color family followed by the last three being the individual Shade.

The Olive drab also changed at the same time as the grey.

I think you need to be careful here when making blanket statements like this. As far as I know there is no direct lineage between the WWII colors as specified in various documents and the Federal Standard 595 colors. Many people have compared them but this is their opinion and are often close but not the same.

The samples mentioned like spec 3-1 neutral grey is a good example. The color neutral Grey doesn't show up in my original color card supplement to Army spec 3-1 nor does it show up in the revision dated April 21, 1943. I do have it in Army Air forces Bulletin No. 48 dated May 28th, 1942 and it is close to FS36173 but not quite the same. Your mileage may vary as might your color samples which helps the point I am trying to make.

I am in no way an expert on paint or anything else for that matter. I just like to be careful with hard fact like statements on things like this without the supporting documentation since we are expressing opinions or repeating the opinions of others. Paint is certainly a sensitive subject for a lot, (come to think of it I guess I'm included in that group) so treading carefully might be a good way to go.

I'll get off of my soapbox...for now...

Deuelly · **Joined:** Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:30 pm **Posts:** 97

flightsimer wrote:

In reality, both of these colors would be 16118/16173. In the FS world, the first number identifies, flat (1) /Semi-gloss (2) / gloss (3) paint. Second number is the color family followed by the last three being the individual Shade.

The Olive drab also changed at the same time as the grey.

In my federal standard book 36173 would be flat.

Taigh Ramey wrote:

I think you need to be careful here when making blanket statements like this. As far as I know there is no direct lineage between the WWII colors as specified in various documents and the Federal Standard 595 colors. Many people have compared them but this is their opinion and are often close but not the same.

Taigh, I think in appendix IV of the federal standard book it actually list certain ANA and 595 colors as being the same. I'm sure there is nothing as far as the early WWII colors though.

Brandon

AG pilot · **Joined:** Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:13 am **Posts:** 532

While FED STD 595 Appendix IV does reference ANA colors, they are not the "exact" same color, but are generally the "closest" cross-over into the FS 595 system.

Taigh Ramey · **Posted:** Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:40 pm

Thanks for the reference to Appendix IV. I isn't included in my standard and I hadn't seen that before so I really appreciate you all bringing it to my attention.

From a few comparisons with the original enamel plates, AAF spec 3-1 and other original samples with 595 colors makes me think that many of the colors were superceded. Our Harpoons Non Specular Sea Blue was a very close match.

I still think it is best to be very careful about making divisive statements that one is the same as the other. There are so many possible variations in old samples, new samples, age, oxidation, fade, UV etc. We try to get as close as we can to the best of our abilities and stand back and hope it turns out the way we want.

Thanks again for the reference!

Here is an excerpt from the revised color card supplement for Spec 3-1. Is gives some references for the colors of different specs being the same as the "new" color.

Deuelly · **Joined:** Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:30 pm **Posts:** 97

AG pilot wrote:

While FED STD 595 Appendix IV does reference ANA colors, they are not the "exact" same color, but are generally the "closest" cross-over into the FS 595 system.

I understand. I was just bringing up that in the eyes of FED STD 595 some ANA number are the same as their numbers so that Taigh new of the reference.

When dealing with any paint you have to be careful using the term "exact". I have different FED STD deck where the same colors have slight veriations between the two. The paints I order come from a company that only deals in FED STD numbers for the military and from batch to batch I've seen veriations. I don't think anyone ever gets it exact. Like Taigh said take your best shot at it and hope the light doesn't change (it could be metameric).

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