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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Warbird Digest
Final Cut-The Post War B-17 Flying Fortress and Survivors - 5th Edition


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:19 am 
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T6flyer wrote:
KiwiZac wrote:
Chris Brame wrote:
I just hope they'll finally have some high-quality full-scale replica TBDs built.

I think I know a potential source for those... :wink:


Tempting, very tempting indeed. I for one would like us to build an Avenger as ground crewed on a British one for a few years during the 90s. For this and the other types required, they are a little thin on the ground over here in the UK, but having built the P-51s and P-40s for 'Red Tails', the Lysander for 'Allied' and two Spitfires for 'Dunkirk', I am sure we could rise to the challenge. Would make a pleasant change from building Spitfires, but then there is talk of a remake of the Battle of Britain film. Hurricanes and 109s....yes please!

Martin
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Well, if you guys decide to take on the TBD, drop me a line. I have lots of info that will help you. :)

Lynn


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:24 am 
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Jim MacDonald wrote:
OD/NG,

I requested info from NASM several years ago about purchasing blueprints/engineering drawings of the TBD from them. They didn't have anything except for some photos and I believe some of Paul Matt's scale drawings. I've since been able to get Xerox copies of the maintenance manual, flight manual and engine manual, but NASM didn't even have those at the time I inquired about the blueprints.

I know that there are some scale RC plans for the TBD, but I have no idea how accurate they are. I wonder if it would be possible for Gateguards to use a combination of one of those sets of plans and photos to come up with some accurate replicas.

Maybe Lynn can chime in on whether anything new has come to light in the way of blueprints in the last couple of years. He has or had probably the most informative website out there on the TBD.

Mac



Thanks for thinking of me Jim, but I've not seen anything other than the fantastic series of LIFE pics surface in the last 10-15 years. With that said, even those VT-6 shots (both the color ones and the later B/W series shot in November 1941) are a tremendously helpful resource, and now that the NHC has digitized almost all their NH series of photos in ridiculously high resolution, we have more than enough to get Martin and his team down the road on a passable TBD replica or six.

And that got me to thinking... could they be built with something like BT-13 main gear struts/wheels and stick a functional radial up front, to get them to look completely authentic as they taxi? Imagine how much that would add to the film!

Lynn


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:31 am 
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Hope the surviving Tora, Tora Tora birds get involved- I can't imagine anyone thought they would still be flying 40+ years later- had the pleasure of seeing the "Val" and "Kate" at the MAM show last week in Virginia and they looked great.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:29 pm 
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lmritger wrote:
Jim MacDonald wrote:
OD/NG,

I requested info from NASM several years ago about purchasing blueprints/engineering drawings of the TBD from them. They didn't have anything except for some photos and I believe some of Paul Matt's scale drawings. I've since been able to get Xerox copies of the maintenance manual, flight manual and engine manual, but NASM didn't even have those at the time I inquired about the blueprints.

I know that there are some scale RC plans for the TBD, but I have no idea how accurate they are. I wonder if it would be possible for Gateguards to use a combination of one of those sets of plans and photos to come up with some accurate replicas.

Maybe Lynn can chime in on whether anything new has come to light in the way of blueprints in the last couple of years. He has or had probably the most informative website out there on the TBD.

Mac



Thanks for thinking of me Jim, but I've not seen anything other than the fantastic series of LIFE pics surface in the last 10-15 years. With that said, even those VT-6 shots (both the color ones and the later B/W series shot in November 1941) are a tremendously helpful resource, and now that the NHC has digitized almost all their NH series of photos in ridiculously high resolution, we have more than enough to get Martin and his team down the road on a passable TBD replica or six.

And that got me to thinking... could they be built with something like BT-13 main gear struts/wheels and stick a functional radial up front, to get them to look completely authentic as they taxi? Imagine how much that would add to the film!

Lynn

A few comments:

1) The movie, "Dive Bomber" with the glorious color film of the TBD's has been transferred to HD and is available for reference. So, this might be another source to provide details besides just the archival photographs.

2) Hopefully Martin can confirm this, but to put a functional radial engine on one of those fiberglass replica's looks like it might not support the weight of a real aircraft engine. An R-1830, as used on the TBD, weighs about 1300 lbs. Even if one went with an R-1340, that's still about 950 lbs hanging off the nose. I'm guessing there would have to be considerable strengthening of that area to bear such a load. Also, to have a functional engine, many systems and accessories would have to be in place. For example, a fuel tank with plumbing would be needed, oil system, starter, magnetos, etc. All of these little ancillary items add up fast in weight and space. I'm sure it could be done, but now you're starting to look at a monocoque design of some type, at least for the nose of the aircraft, to provide space for everything. All of this now adds complexity, weight and expense. Might it be better, easier and cheaper to just plug some kind of electric engine on that capable of swinging a plastic or composite propeller of some sort?

Hopefully Martin can weigh in here and talk about the viability of such an option.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:56 pm 
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Quote:
Might it be better, easier and cheaper to just plug some kind of electric engine on that capable of swinging a plastic or composite propeller of some sort?


As I recall, that's exactly what GategurdsUK did with the "Allied" Lysander.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:54 am 
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Stephan Wilkinson wrote:
Quote:
Might it be better, easier and cheaper to just plug some kind of electric engine on that capable of swinging a plastic or composite propeller of some sort?


As I recall, that's exactly what GategurdsUK did with the "Allied" Lysander.


And as Stephan says that is exactly what we did. We could put a real engine into an airframe, but as the previous gentleman stated would involve too much work and of course the price would increase. The models aren't just fibreglass, underneath each one is a metal frame and the 109 recently completed was to have a DB601 installed, but due to time commitments this didn't happen. A Spitfire we are building now, is to have an electric motor fitted.

Martin


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Is Tom Cruise going to have time to finish up Top Gun 2 and get over to the Midway set??


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:11 am 
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When it comes to war films, people who populate aviation forums want lots of correct aircraft and history, eschewing a love story or Tom Cruise...while the studio and producers actually want the film to...get this...MAKE MONEY (especially overseas where I'm guessing Chinese don't give a flying fig about B-26s or TBDs).

Largely mutually exclusive desires.
It can't be a documentary or semi-documentary (witness Battle of Britain...which was pretty boring to anyone not interested in aircraft and which also had a rather passionless love story).

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Last edited by JohnB on Wed May 31, 2017 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:20 am 
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JohnB wrote:
It can't be a documentary or semi-documentary (witness Battle of Britain...which was pretty boring to anyone not interested in aircraft and which also had a rather passionless love story.


You did NOT say that!

Seriously, you're right. BOB is one of my favorite movies, particularly for all of the flying scenes and hardware. But despite providing one piece of eye candy (Susannah York), the romantic sub-plot was a waste of time, and despite some good actors, none of the characters were particularly interesting.

Top Gun, on the other hand. OK, forget it...


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:22 pm 
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I foresee another cgi movie leaving with the same feelings about " red tails" " Pearl Harbor" or " unbroken"

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:32 pm 
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whistlingdeath77 wrote:
I foresee another cgi movie leaving with the same feelings about " red tails" " Pearl Harbor" or " unbroken"

I agree with you about "Red Tails" and "Pearl Harbor", both of which stunk with bad CGI. But, "Unbroken", really?

That movie had the best CGI I've ever seen. It was totally believable and added to the story line. If all movies had the CGI of "Unbroken", I would be totally happy.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:45 pm 
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OD/NG wrote:
whistlingdeath77 wrote:
I foresee another cgi movie leaving with the same feelings about " red tails" " Pearl Harbor" or " unbroken"

I agree with you about "Red Tails" and "Pearl Harbor", both of which stunk with bad CGI. But, "Unbroken", really?

That movie had the best CGI I've ever seen. It was totally believable and added to the story line. If all movies had the CGI of "Unbroken", I would be totally happy.



Cgi meaning there was not a real flying b-24

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:14 pm 
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whistlingdeath77 wrote:
OD/NG wrote:
whistlingdeath77 wrote:
I foresee another cgi movie leaving with the same feelings about " red tails" " Pearl Harbor" or " unbroken"

I agree with you about "Red Tails" and "Pearl Harbor", both of which stunk with bad CGI. But, "Unbroken", really?

That movie had the best CGI I've ever seen. It was totally believable and added to the story line. If all movies had the CGI of "Unbroken", I would be totally happy.



Cgi meaning there was not a real flying b-24

I understand.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:33 pm 
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Jim MacDonald wrote:
OD/NG,

I requested info from NASM several years ago about purchasing blueprints/engineering drawings of the TBD from them. They didn't have anything except for some photos and I believe some of Paul Matt's scale drawings. I've since been able to get Xerox copies of the maintenance manual, flight manual and engine manual, but NASM didn't even have those at the time I inquired about the blueprints.
Mac


I would love to see a Maintenance manual for a TBD, one of my favorite planes

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:42 am 
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Look, I get it. The exploding Spru-cans, completely ridiculous subplots regarding the Doolittle Raiders and other idiocy crammed into "Pearl Harbor" makes it dang near unwatchable. However, I have two words for you gentlemen: Kate Beckinsale. I could watch that lovely woman read the phone book for two straight hours with nary a complaint. "Red Tails", on the other hand... the less said, the better.

Martin, anything that would spin a prop on the TBD replicas would be just fine; an electric motor would certainly be less expensive than a bunch of R-1830s!

Matt, I need to digitize my E & M manual; it will be a few weeks before I can sneak into work over the weekend and do that, but I think it's time that info got out there.

And if anyone has any contacts with Roland Emmerich or the production team starting in on this, would you please let them know there's a group of folks here in the Hampton Roads area with correct mid-1942 USN flight gear who would love to take part in this production? :lol: In fact, I was invited to join the Midway Symposium being held at the MacArthur Memorial in Norfolk tomorrow in my gear; naturally, I'll be representing the VT squadrons, while a friend whose father flew in VF-8 will represent the fighters.

Anchors aweigh and all that,

Lynn


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