A Visit to Ray Moore and Lucky 13

[DH82EH]

What a great project to work on with your Dad!
Nice to have a little part in the restoration of several B-17's. Very cool

Thanks for the post.

Andy

[TheBigBadGman]

Okay, now it is time for us to build Lucky Thirteen's interior doors.

I have the blueprints and have gathered materials for their proper markings. That said, it would be nice to have some more references. Does anyone here have any photographs that feature the B-17's interior doors? I have a couple from Boeing, but I was hoping for something a bit clearer and closer.

An original surviving door would be nice to reference, but it seems that no surviving B-17 still have their interior doors.

-G
www.gblume.com

[TheBigBadGman]

Some people have privately sent me some pics so I think I'm in pretty good shape now in regard to references.

The doors are not specific to manufacturer. In regard to the variants, the doors throughout the big-tail series (E, F, & G) are all pretty much the same. The only real change comes in the rear radio door: the earlier versions having four hinges rather than three and the late-Gs also having a screen window installed.











I've also gathered materials on the door's markings - you might be shocked on how many stickers each door had!

In terms of hardware, I have two door latches, two front latch plates, one rear latch plate, and one correct door handle (the one closer to the camera).



The serial numbers for the door latch assemblies are as follows:

Door Latch: 54B
Door Handle: 380B
Front Latch Plate: 15-7372-23
Rear Latch Plate: 15-7372-22
Spindle: 51-144-1
Keeper: 1-20555-1

I do not have any of the hinges. Their serial numbers are:

Hinge - Door Half: 1-18266-2
Hinge - Bulkhead Half: 1-18266-1
Hinge Pine: 1-18266-3

Obviously, I need enough of all this to do three doors (three latch assemblies, nine hinges). I am also to build the crawl-way door which leads to the tail gunner's position. Here is the one in Memphis Belle:



This rare piece will be kind of unusual. I have nothing from it whatsoever. Here are its numbers:

Door Hinge Assembly: 1-18814
Slide Latch Plates: 1-19045, 1-19046, 1-9047
Slide Latch Knobs: F21 1/2

I almost had someone donate the airplane's Sierra Manufacturing chemical toilet, but before he came through he found an interested buyer who gave him more for it. Oh well.



I am also still working on the Cramer posture chairs. There is a groove in the seat plate that is proving difficult to replicate and we are waiting on a special bit to cut it with.

I spoke to an old employee from Cramer who wrote me detailed instructions on how to replicate the seat's cushion. Unfortunately, through my research I have come to find that a lot of people are mistaken on these chairs:

The B-29 clearly used three-legged Cramer chairs, with OD fabric upholstery and metal seat plates, mounted on black plunger-release frames. It seems that the B-17 used a different chair altogether.

I cannot find any reference showing a three-leg chair in a B-17. The wooden plates are consistent with older Cramer chairs and what photos I have all show vinyl covered chairs.







I cannot confirm the color on these as no-one seems to have an unaltered example anymore. Therefore, I am leaning toward this color:



I DO know that Lucky Thirteen would have had three four-legged Cramer chairs installed, with the bombardier's seat having a fold-down top a la the photo above from Deport41.

We have chair frames for a B-17G navigator (the swivel type) and a three-leg chair. Obviously, we could use a four-leg frame and a backrest to use as a model. If I had a backrest, it would be nice to also have a nice reference pic of the back portion so I could order the proper buttons that hold the vinyl in place.

Lastly, we are looking to set up Ray as an organization, using the name "Hangar Thirteen." He isn't registered yet, but my wife has made him a nice logo for when the time comes.



Anyways, that's where I am at. If anybody can help with missing parts and references, I'm open.

-G
http://www.gblume.com

[Cvairwerks]

Air Corp Library has the 15-7372 drawing, and with some careful scaling work, you could develop the hinge information you need. I did see what appears to be a part number error on page 2 of the drawing at Detail I. It appears that they have labeled two different parts as -23's, so look carefully. Also, note that there are some hardware changes based on serial numbers in various locations. I also noted that there are several references to other BAC drawings for door latch information in the notes sections. They might be available from one of the B-17 guys.

[TheBigBadGman]

I already have those blueprints - we’re using them to build the doors!

I just don’t do metal work (don’t know how) so I was hoping that I might could find some help here.

-G
www.gblume.com

[ballturret]

I thought these two pictures might be of some help , if you need any dimensions just let me know? (single gun mount)
Ah!..............just received a message saying my pictures are to large ! I have no idea how to reduce them so I will send a pm

[TheBigBadGman]

For those of you who are following these posts, I have gotten Colin's pictures and resized them for all to see.





This is truly an amazing find and Colin has been generous enough to offer tracings and measurements so that we may build an exact replica. Ray is going to be floored when I tell him about this.

In other news, I have finished building the doors and will be posting them shortly. Unforunately, we do not have enough hardware to outfit them all, so the doors are not yet equipped with handles and hinges.

My wife is currently working on the various prints that adorn each door. (Very interesting stuff.) I've been deliberating on whether to post them as is or wait a week or so for the prints to arrive...

-G
http://www.gblume.com

[DH82EH]

Still following.
Still enjoying!
What a fantastic score!
Great to be part af this fantastic project!!

Andy

[Cvairwerks]

Colin: Which ball mount is that? A K-2 maybe???

[ballturret]

Sorry I have no idea , its your typical .50 cal ball socket ?
I think these mounts were fitted or supplied as a kit of parts to the various squadrons from BAD 1 (burtonwood ) which was my local USAAF Airfield , most major modifications were done at Burtonwood.
this mount along with other various stuff was found many years ago in a local scrap yard ,even up to the late eighties theres was a pile of stuff about twenty five foot high and the top was a number of B17 and B24 under carriage legs , sadly all long gone!

[airnutz]

I was looking in the B-17F manual among the armament diagrams for that mount but it's not shown. Though, the next page shows 4 examples of various Nose Gun installations and among them is a nice drawing of that mounting pocket with a supporting 4-point tubular hoop. Other sources with multiple examples ID that as a standard K-4 ball-socket with the extra support mounting.

[TheBigBadGman]

Hey Colin,

I just told Ray about the mount. He is ecstatic!

He wanted to convey his thanks for helping out and providing pictures and templates. He has also made an offer:

If you are willing to send the mount to us, Ray will build a replica and send the original back once the replica is made. Plus, Ray has offered to pay for shipping.

What do you think?

-G
www.gblume.com

[airnutz]

For those of you who are following these posts, I have gotten Colin's pictures and resized them for all to see.

Forgot to mention..I reckon the number cast into the socket plate is probably a casting number, but if other numbers are visible the K-4 serial in the manual was given as, 42B19084. Pretty neat find in any case.

[Cvairwerks]

Bummer, as I need to copy a K-2 or K-2A for my Fairchild. The 42 number is the specifcation, with K-4 being the common designation.

I guess I’m going to have to arrange to go out to Taigh’s and make a set of drawings and patterns off of the -2 he has.

[ballturret]

If you need drawings of the ball socket mount I am quite happy to take some measurements and send them on just pm me your email address........