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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:33 pm 
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I was curious to hear some ideas... I'm talking the likes of Boxscar or Enola Gay, even Memphis Belle! But none of these are airworthy... Let me hear it! pop2


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:05 pm 
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I remember at one of the “ Gathering of Mustangs and Legends” the P-51 held in highest esteem was the P-51C “Ina the Macon Belle” NX1204 owned by Kermit Weeks. It’s a Bendix trophy winner once owned and raced by a Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman. It’s sister ship P-51C “Excalibur III” (NX1202) is hanging in the a Smithsonian.
NAlso, the B-25 owned by the Cavanaugh museum is supposed to have significant combat history.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:24 pm 
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Top points for Significance should be for both the type of plane and the quality of the airplane within the type. A plane that anyone recognizes as a significant type is also important. Everyone knows Spitfire, Zero, Corsair, and Mustang for example. There may be a significant P-63 among Kingcobras...but it will never be a significant type. And while the B-25 is a significant type, none survived from its most significant day in history, the Doolittle Raid. If one did...ect.. just my opinion.

Flight/ In order:

Spitfire MkIX BR601. Most significant airworthy Spitfire, and of the most historic Mark. Best history.

Zero 61-120. Survivor of combat use, returned for testing in the USA, and flying preserved for years

Corsair F4U-1 17799 also operated by Planes of Fame. Combat use, SW Pacific and Vought built.

P-51D 44-63675. Sierra Sue, restored, but from an aircraft that remained whole. Combat vet.

P-47D 42-29150 “Dottie Mae”. A tremedous restoration of an UN believable survivor. Super cool

Those are the big “Five”. Amended by CB! Thank you.


Last edited by Joe Scheil on Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:26 pm 
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Add P-47D 42-29150 Dottie Mae and make it a Big Five?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:20 am 
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Joe Scheil wrote:
Top points for Significance should be for both the type of plane and the quality of the airplane within the type.


To add another layer of consideration...and complexity....
You have to consider the originality of the aircraft. By originality I mean the amount of original metal that's still there, not just if it still has (deactivated) guns and obsolete radios.
An aircraft with combat history with a great restoration means a great deal less if it's been re-skinned like many Spitfires, rebuilt like many Mustangs or otherwise altered.

Don't get all misty eyed thinking a member of "the few" put his boot on that wingwalk before taking off from Hawkinge, or Rosie riveted that panel while waiting for her boyfriend to return home...the less romantic truth is that piece of skin is likely newer than you realize.

Don't get me wrong, they're still great artifacts, but it gets like George Washington's hatchet that's had two heads and three handles replaced since he last used it, or Steve McQueens rebodied, rebuilt and restored Ferrari...
a lot of it's historic significance is lost if it hasn't been conserved.
Due to common sense, I'm not sure ANY flying warbird meets the strictest measure of historic criteria.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:46 am 
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JohnB,

I agree with your ideas, but not your conclusion. From personal knowledge and proximity to them, each of the warbirds I mention is significantly extant original.

Respectfully


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:07 am 
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Joe Scheil wrote:
JohnB,

I agree with your ideas, but not your conclusion. From personal knowledge and proximity to them, each of the warbirds I mention is significantly extant original.

Respectfully


Don't have my records at hand,but I don't think BR601 has much original metal. Peter A will have the skinny without having to look it up.

The Shuttleworth's MKV, AR501 is far more original as is the Old Flying Machine Company's MKIX, MH434.

Most original historic flying, probably the BBMF MK II, P7350. Oldest flying Spit, Battle of Britain veteran.

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Last edited by DaveM2 on Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:13 am 
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I'd also go for AR501 or MH434. Most other Spitfires can't really lay claim to their serial number's history since there usually isn't much left of the original. Ditto P-51s various.

However I seem to recall an airworthy PBY with significant WW2 history (including a couple of subs) - and presumably a great deal of its period structure intact. Anyone recall which one?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:22 am 
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quemerford wrote:
I'd also go for AR501 or MH434. Most other Spitfires can't really lay claim to their serial number's history since there usually isn't much left of the original. Ditto P-51s various.

However I seem to recall an airworthy PBY with significant WW2 history (including a couple of subs) - and presumably a great deal of its period structure intact. Anyone recall which one?



This one: https://catalina-pby.nl/en/history-en/negen-levens/

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:45 am 
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The two that come to mind are Glacier Girl and MAAM's P-61 when finished.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:22 am 
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aerojock wrote:
The two that come to mind are Glacier Girl and MAAM's P-61 when finished.

Perhaps someone has better insight, but as I recall from a documentary on the restoration several years ago, very little of the P38 you see flying as 'Glacier Girl' is the original metal recovered from under the ice. Most of the metal had to be replaced to make it airworthy.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:28 am 
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DaveM2 wrote:
quemerford wrote:
I'd also go for AR501 or MH434. Most other Spitfires can't really lay claim to their serial number's history since there usually isn't much left of the original. Ditto P-51s various.

However I seem to recall an airworthy PBY with significant WW2 history (including a couple of subs) - and presumably a great deal of its period structure intact. Anyone recall which one?



This one: https://catalina-pby.nl/en/history-en/negen-levens/


That's the one: reading this makes it hard to believe an aircraft did hat much and survived, much less as a flyer.

Winner I'd say.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:29 am 
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The Collings Foundation's Spitfire BR601 has an incredible WWII combat record - flown by two different aces, and the list is long of its combat missions (116) - which includes flying escort duty for 8th AF bombers, including a few of the same missions flown by the "Memphis Belle". I don't know how much original material is in the airframe, but it was a complete aircraft up into the 80's, prior to the first start of restoration. It is also quite special for being one of the first Mk.IX Spitfires ever manufactured, with some early/unique details as a result.

I'm a Mustang guy, and "Sierra Sue II" and "Upupa Epops" top my list of most important in that category. It's the combination of originality, authenticity and connection to WWII history. If you include "Sierra Sue II", you have to include "Upupa Epops", and vice-versa. There are some Mustangs flying today with a bit more original material than these two, but aren't nearly as authentic or don't have WWII combat records. I know in the case of "Sierra Sue II", the majority of its structure is original (with just a replaced rib here and there where absolutely required - I recall a rib that had a factory-repair at North American was actually kept in the restoration, rather than making a perfect new one, because it is authentic to that airframe's history and it was an important goal of the project to keep as much original material as possible in the aircraft), and on "SSII" there are original skins around the tail, the cowlings and throughout the wings (the rest were replaced where needed so that they could ensure the aircraft looked exactly as it did in 1944/'45). Military equipment original to the aircraft that had been stripped out decades ago had been kept and was put back in the aircraft during restoration. With regard to "Upupa Epops", it is known to have shot down two Luftwaffe aircraft, including an Me-262. Both aircraft survived as whole, intact airframes prior to restoration.

The Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum's FG-1D Corsair tops my list in that category, for its combination of originality, authenticity and connection to WWII history. It is the most authentically-restored and outfitted Corsair to-date, mostly all original (structure & skins), and has a documented WWII combat service in the Pacific. The Planes of Fame's F4U-1A is right up there too - very original (though metal-covered wings rather than fabric as original), with a documented WWII combat service in the Pacific.

"Glacier Girl" is probably one of the most famous/well known warbirds flying today (in addition to the likes of "FIFI", "Doc", the Collings bombers, "That's All Brother", the BBMF and Canadian Lancasters, etc.). As Fearless Tower mentions, I think "Glacier Girl" has long been perceived as having more original material in it than it actually does - I recall Bob Cardin mentioning that every last part of the aircraft was broken/damaged. The story of its recovery and restoration, as well as the story it tells of "Operation Bolero", is important. Not to mention how rare a variant of the P-38 it is, not only flying, but among all surviving P-38's in museums/collections. It remains one of my favorite warbirds, and one of the key aircraft that got me interested in warbirds as a youngster growing up. (The P-38F "White 33" is the most authentically-restored P-38 flying today, but it is also the least original - like some of the new Spitfire/Mustang restorations/builds, where they have reached the pinnacle of authenticity, but are mostly newly manufactured from very little to begin with.)

The P-47 "Dottie Mae" is another spectacular, restored aircraft - not incredibly original, due to the amount of original material which could not be re-used in a flying aircraft (much more so I think than they originally thought when the project started), but it ranks at the top of the most authentically-restored P-47's, and has a lengthy combat record. One of the best things I saw come out of that project is seeing the guys that were originally assigned-to/involved with the aircraft during WWII being able to be reunited with the aircraft throughout its restoration and seeing it completed/flying again. To me, this aircraft is absolutely fantastic (another which I stayed glued to for any news throughout its restoration), and it looks stunning, both authentically and aesthetically.

As also has been mentioned, the Planes of Fame's A6M5 Zero is a very special/important survivor, still flying today. It has been through two separate restorations with Planes of Fame (the most recent being completed just a few years ago), but it still remains extremely original (skins/structure, etc.). The Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum's original/flying Fw-190A-5 is also a very special/important survivor, which is also extremely original and of course extremely accurate - not only is much of the internal structure original, but about 90% of the skins are original as well. Those two are the most original combat types flying today that were built by/served with the Axis powers during WWII. There are three airworthy Bf-109E's, with WWII history/records, but are not as original/a lot of new material.

There are a couple of warbirds flying today which lay claim to being present at Pearl Harbor during the Japanese attack on Dec. 7, 1941, but these are largely new build aircraft as well/very little original material to their specific identities - the Collings P-40B and the Mid America Flight Museum's Grumman Duck (formerly with Chuck Greenhill).


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Joe Scheil wrote:
JohnB,

I agree with your ideas, but not your conclusion. From personal knowledge and proximity to them, each of the warbirds I mention is significantly extant original.

Respectfully


I wasn't commenting on specific aircraft, rather the warbird population as a whole.
When we have a historic airframe, there is "restored", "restored to original" and genuine original.
The stringent demands of flying mean that airworthy original aircraft (especially warbirds) are few and far between.

As far as original Spitfires go, I would think that the Chicago museum example would have to be a top contender...albeit non-flying. As I understand it, it was withdrawn from military service in period and presented to the museum. It may have been the first example given to any museum.

As far as B-17s go, I guess it be a toss up between the Memphis Belle and the Swoose...it would be interesting to learn more about the current level of originality of those two aircraft, remembering that both were ill-stored for years. Likewise, although it's didn't have a well known wartime history, it would be interesting to know how much of the Collings Foundation Witchcraft is original, given its decades of use in India.

As these airframes get older and more significant, it would be interesting to have them receive an archeological-level engineering assessment done on them for posterity.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:10 pm 
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quemerford wrote:
I'd also go for AR501 or MH434. Most other Spitfires can't really lay claim to their serial number's history since there usually isn't much left of the original. Ditto P-51s various.


MkXVI SL721, currently in belgium, Ex Vintage Wings of Canada

Never restored, original wing structure, factory engine.... Probably the most original Spitfire still flying today.

Sean


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