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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Warbird Digest
Final Cut-The Post War B-17 Flying Fortress and Survivors - 5th Edition


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:37 pm 
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What an awesome piece of machinery. Twenty years ago I would have bet money that the only Twin Mustang that we would ever see fly would have been the ex-CAF bird. Now we've got two nearly ready and neither of them is the ex-CAF machine! Extraordinary times for sure.

PS - I assume from the missing gear doors that those photos were taken prior to that above with the yellow spinners. No?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:27 pm 
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Chad, yes, any photos of the aircraft with the spinners still black were taken before the photos with the spinners yellow as they are now. On Mustangs retained by North American for their own flight testing purposes, they painted the prop spinners on each individual solid colors - yellow, blue, green, red, etc. - typically the only marking separating them on the ramp from all of the rest of the factory-fresh Mustangs.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:18 pm 
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Wow. Those photos!!!

JohnT, I never knew that. Thanks for explaining.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:53 pm 
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KiwiZac wrote:
Wow. Those photos!!!

JohnT, I never knew that. Thanks for explaining.

The guy who shot those is a friend of mine. The night run made the cover of EAA's Sport Aviation magazine. He is also a member on this site.

Will


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:14 am 
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The latest!

http://warbirdsnews.com/warbird-restora ... -2018.html


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:15 pm 
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I've got to wonder how odd it is flying sitting that far left of the center line of the aircraft. Also whether ones senses are thrown off by this. Landing it must be a little weird also.

Does a pilot need to go through specialized training to fly this aircraft? Or is all that is required is to be checked out in a basic Mustang?

Yeah I know lots of questions that have probably been asked and answered at some point in the past.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:21 pm 
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I have often wondered about the sensations felt when flying this aircraft. Even a roll would seem weird. Since no one has flown own since the 1980s where would you get specialized training? I would think there are some very obvious differences between the F-82 and the P-51, the first being having to land and take off left or right of the center line, and forward view, since there are two engines to block your view.

Now I am not trying to come down on the pilot that was flying the CAF F-82 when it crashed, just the opposite. The pilot flying the CAF F-82 when it crashed was a very qualified P-51 pilot but even he had problems landing the aircraft. I would think that back when they were new I would expect that there was specialized training for the aircraft but I do not know that for a fact.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:21 am 
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aerojock wrote:
I have often wondered about the sensations felt when flying this aircraft. Even a roll would seem weird. Since no one has flown own since the 1980s where would you get specialized training? I would think there are some very obvious differences between the F-82 and the P-51, the first being having to land and take off left or right of the center line, and forward view, since there are two engines to block your view.

Now I am not trying to come down on the pilot that was flying the CAF F-82 when it crashed, just the opposite. The pilot flying the CAF F-82 when it crashed was a very qualified P-51 pilot but even he had problems landing the aircraft. I would think that back when they were new I would expect that there was specialized training for the aircraft but I do not know that for a fact.


It is a multi engine plane, and on that type, you are almost never landing on center line, you are to the left or right depending on where you are sitting. A 747 pilot has no problem landing a plane when he is to the left of center and 3 stories up. You get your sight picture before you take off and that is what you look for when you land. Even if he lands with the centerline going down the left fuselage, who cares ? most runways are 100+ feet in width, 8ft to the left or right are not going to matter. As far as rolls, you fly the plane, it is not an issue, otherwise the Air Force would have prohibited acrobatics in the P/F-82s. They are not reinventing the wheel, it has all been done before.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:01 am 
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aerojock,

I'll just ditto on what Matt stated well and add a little more specific to the P-/F-82.

If you have not yet slaked your thirst for knowledge with the flight operating instructions, then I'd start there. Pages 26 and 27 include details on flight characteristics and prohibited maneuvers.

http://www.avialogs.com/viewer/avialogs ... hp?id=3802

Concerning your question on roll, I quote: "Rolling maneuvers feel quite natural, and there is no perceptible acceleration of the pilot or copilot about the centerline of the airplane during such maneuvers."

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:14 pm 
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aerojock wrote:
I have often wondered about the sensations felt when flying this aircraft. Even a roll would seem weird. Since no one has flown own since the 1980s where would you get specialized training? I would think there are some very obvious differences between the F-82 and the P-51, the first being having to land and take off left or right of the center line, and forward view, since there are two engines to block your view.

Now I am not trying to come down on the pilot that was flying the CAF F-82 when it crashed, just the opposite. The pilot flying the CAF F-82 when it crashed was a very qualified P-51 pilot but even he had problems landing the aircraft. I would think that back when they were new I would expect that there was specialized training for the aircraft but I do not know that for a fact.

I was there when the CAF's went down, I Always heard that the Pilot said that "He fell asleep" ( :? :shock: )
What REALLY Got my Goat is that when they towed it back behind the hangers, I witness a Bunch of ******* ******* KNUCKLE HEADS take turns Standing from wing tip to wing tip LAUGHING ( :twisted: ) taking pic.s as they put their arms around each other AND where Laughing and rocking the Plane by hopping up and down on it ! :evil:
I KNOW that was a long time ago, people's ideas....Blah Blah Blah.. BUT Still..... Still to this day, I can not excuse it. Thanks EVERY One for letting me Vent, Just my 2 Million pennies..... pop2

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Dan,

Thanks for the info, good to know. I wished I had a manual to some of these airplanes when I was younger growing up in Harlingen.

TBM Tony,

I was there too when it crashed landed. I heard he flared too high and it stalled. I also heard that the airspeed indicator was in MPH and not KIAS and that was also a factor. Once again all this is second or third hand info but I know some people that were in the office when he walked in afterwards.

I have seen people do some stupid stuff to planes at airshows and even worse cars at car shows, liked they owned it. They probably thought that since it was wrecked they could do what they wanted, since it would be repaired anyway. I guess we should be thankful they weren't stealing stuff from the plane. In my younger days I was guilty of touching some planes but I knew how not to hurt it.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Was is scrapped or restored?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:16 pm 
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lucky52 wrote:
Was is scrapped or restored?


That was the one the USAF repossessed from the CAF. As the courts ruled, the USAF had loaned the CAF the airplane. When the CAF could no longer fly it (after the crash), they ultimately traded it to a third party for other airplane stuff. The USAF swooped in and reclaimed its loan of the aircraft.

There is plenty in the WIX archives on this if you're interested.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:51 am 
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ffuries wrote:
I've got to wonder how odd it is flying sitting that far left of the center line of the aircraft. Also whether ones senses are thrown off by this. Landing it must be a little weird also.

Does a pilot need to go through specialized training to fly this aircraft? Or is all that is required is to be checked out in a basic Mustang?

Yeah I know lots of questions that have probably been asked and answered at some point in the past.


Maybe the test pilot(s) should get a few hours in the "Yak-110":

Image

Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:21 am 
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aerojock wrote:
Dan,

Thanks for the info, good to know. I wished I had a manual to some of these airplanes when I was younger growing up in Harlingen.

TBM Tony,

I was there too when it crashed landed. I heard he flared too high and it stalled. I also heard that the airspeed indicator was in MPH and not KIAS and that was also a factor.

Airshow-itis or hurry-upitis, ultimately appears to be the cause for the crash, not sleep apnia, airspeed indicator issues, or various pilot failings. As told to me by the FAA guy there that week, and who filled out the FAA report. One of these days I'm going to order that report just to have it. Commonly folks dig up the NTSB report, but they came along later and weren't there that day. They had just got her flying, but the -82 had an issue they had been chasing all week with oil supply leakage to the right-side propeller. IIRC, Lefty was overseeing that project and was in the passenger seat when the shunt occurred. This continued right into airshow time, when just before flair on the last landing, the pilot, "Grinny" Messick, lost pitch due oil starvation on the right prop causing a stall to the right or an asymmetric thrust situation. By the photos, the right prop looks as if it has been feathered and the left prop appears in a "normal thrust mode". As I understand it, when the oil is absent to the prop, the blades are free to flop about. The props appear to have had minimal rotation when they struck the ground, as 3 of the left prop blades are bent back "normally" as carrying pitch but little energy with the tip of the 4th blade scuffed and a slight bend back. Remember the landing gear are collapsing somewhere here during the event. The right-side blades, are all bent perpendicular to a feathered appearing state...tho oddly with the tips pointing at each other on a couple pair appearing to have come down as so, (^). There is one photo prior to the crash of her sitting on the ramp with the spinner removed from the right-side with a large oil stain underneath.

When it gets too hot to work outside, I'll try to post a couple of photos.

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