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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:20 pm 
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/29/wo ... yover.html

I really hope that the info in this article is wrong about the pilot running out of gas. That doesn't help the cause for any of us.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:10 pm 
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I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in the article.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:36 am 
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This article states/shows two planes went down yesterday. Pics are at the link.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... yover.html



Four hospitalized when two World War Two-era training planes crash after Memorial Day flyover

A man and a woman went down in a WWII-era plane after a Memorial Day flyover
The 1943 Fairchild PT-23 went down just after midday when it ran out of fuel
Both the male pilot and female passenger were taken to hospital for stitches
Just three hours earlier, another WWII-era plane went down after a flyover
Investigators do not know why the 1944 Aeronca Defender went down

By Hannah Moore For Dailymail.com

Published: 17:32 EDT, 29 May 2018 | Updated: 19:19 EDT, 29 May 2018

Two people were left needing stitches after a commemorative plane from 1943 crashed following a fly over on Memorial Day.

The Second World War aircraft's engine failed just after noon on Monday, sending it nosediving into the ground near Westport Airport in Kansas, The Wichita Eagle reported.

Just hours earlier, the 1943 Fairchild PT-23 had flown over a memorial service, as part of the Commemorative Air Force-Jayhawk Wing.

The plane was designed to train Air Force pilots and more than 8,000 were built over the lifespan of the design, the Golden Wings Museum says.

On a crash report, investigators say the 42-year-old male pilot, who was carrying a female passenger, 'ran out of fuel approaching the runway at Westport Airport and attempted to restart the engine'.

'Engine failed to start and plane crashed leading up to the runway,' the report read.

On the way down, Sergeant Kelly O'Brian told the Witchita Eagle the plane clipped a pole and the ground.

The policeman said with fueling vessels nearby, the accident could have been much worse.

The Kansas Highway Patrol and Federal Aviation Administration are investigating the incident.

In neighboring Nebraska, another Second World War era plane crashed into a bean field about 9am following a flyover.

The 1944 Aeronca Defender, also used for training, went down about 9.15am.

Pilot Dennis Westergaard, 62, and passenger Delmar Chamberlain, 87, were 'pretty roughed up', friend Judy Blomm told KETV, but expected to recover.

Chamberlain, who is a military veteran, was treated and released, while Westergaard was transferred to Nebraska Medicine in Omaha for further treatment.

The cause of the crash is unknown at this time, but Burt County Sheriff's Office and the Federal Aviation Administration are investigating.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:36 am 
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The good news is that all occupants are alive and the planes can be rebuilt at great cost. Couldn't help but notice the PT-23 appears to have a CAF logo on it. As a fairly new member, I would love to serve on a board at the national level, or at least send some comments on improving the CAF's small airplane safety record.
There are some very simple items that can be incorporated into the check out process that wil greatly reduce the loss of these loved and fun to fly "warbugs."


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:29 pm 
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That's not the first CAF PT-23 to run out of fuel and crash. The one I'm speaking of ran the tank dry and didn't make the switch to the other full tank.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:19 am 
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marine air wrote:
The good news is that all occupants are alive and the planes can be rebuilt at great cost. Couldn't help but notice the PT-23 appears to have a CAF logo on it. As a fairly new member, I would love to serve on a board at the national level, or at least send some comments on improving the CAF's small airplane safety record.
There are some very simple items that can be incorporated into the check out process that wil greatly reduce the loss of these loved and fun to fly "warbugs."

There are indeed a lot of simple things, but the problem is culture just like in the military. Some units have a genuine safety culture and some are still full of cowboys. The CAF has tried many times to address this at the national level, but some units just won't get with the program.

Note: I have no inside details and am not speaking about the specific accident. Simply addressing the overall issue with safety in the CAF.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:21 pm 
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Yeah, three other recent fuel accidents that come to mind by the CAF are the Antonov AN-2 last year that was totaled, the P-63F Kingcobra that was damaged landing deadstick on a short airstrip, and the Grumman C-1 that crashed on the east coast from lack of fuel.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:18 pm 
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marine air wrote:
Yeah, three other recent fuel accidents that come to mind by the CAF are the Antonov AN-2 last year that was totaled

Case in point about the culture of certain units: A friend of mine used to work with that unit and got fed up with them a few years ago. Said it was only a matter of time before they wrecked it. And they did.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:27 pm 
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Wasn't there a P -51C crash that 'forgot' to lower the landing gear?? :?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:35 am 
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Lon Moer wrote:
Wasn't there a P -51C crash that 'forgot' to lower the landing gear?? :?

He lowered the gear. Unfortunately it was after touchdown so even more damage occurred....


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:16 pm 
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And last year the pilot of a P-51D forgot to lower the gear but the only damage was the 3/8" that had to be taken off the prop.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:50 am 
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Fearless Tower wrote:
There are indeed a lot of simple things, but the problem is culture just like in the military.


Are you saying the modern military lacks a safety culture?
If so, what's that opinion based on?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Lon Moer wrote:
Wasn't there a P -51C crash that 'forgot' to lower the landing gear?? :?


Yes, and the pilot admitted to his error rather than trying to obfuscate the truth and blame it on a mechanical issue.

This is not a problem limited to the CAF however. A few years back a C-17 landed gear-up as well. This is a time immemorial problem with retractable gear aircraft. If you can solve this problem you would be an aviation safety hero.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Piper did, but in such a poor way. I think it was the Arrow that auto gear extend...


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:58 pm 
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There are a few incorrect comments in this thread about three other CAF accidents that I would like to correct. The CAF has a Standards and Evaluation (Stan/Eval) group/committee that advises the professional staff in matters regarding flying standards, pilot qualifications and general flight operations and safety matters. That group is currently discussing the recent PT-23 accident and preparing some guidance and safety reviews for our fleet of pilots and air crews. I am a member of that group. The Chief Pilot for the CAF is aware I am making this post.

The comment that the Grumman S-2B, called a C-1 in the post, crashed due to fuel problems is incorrect. The direct cause was the complete failure of an engine while on a 3 mile final to land and then a failure by the crew to handle the engine out proceedures properly. Yes, still a crew error but not due to fuel.

The AN-2 that crashed had contaminated fuel, not a lack of fuel, caused by water in the fuel system. Again, this should have been preventable but the sudden loss of power was not due to running out of fuel, as noted above.

The P-51C gear up was very clearly pilot error as he openly admitted to the FAA and CAF in his interview shortly after the crash, which I attended. There was no attempt to lower the gear, as noted above. The gear handle was found down but the pilot said that he probably stepped on it and moved it down while exiting the aircraft after it came to rest. There was no extra damage caused to the gear that I am aware of.

I am a long time member of the CAF and am not trying to defend any errors involved in these accidents but rather report the correct information about them. Those of you who are CAF members will probably be hearing more about safety from HQ in the near future. I hope you all fly safe.

Randy


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