Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:19 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 11:57 am
Posts: 156
I heard that the early T33, with theJ33 engine where started on aviation gasoline,then once running switched over to jet fuel,is this right?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:31 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:27 pm
Posts: 2482
Since the T-33 first flew in 1948 and JP-4 wasn’t developed until 1951, there might be a grain of truth in this story. JP-1 was a pure kerosene jet fuel developed in 1944. JP-4 was a kerosene-gasoline blend that was highly volatile but was needed to allow afterburners to ignite in the early engines or to get an engine restart at higher altitudes. It was retired in the mid 90’s for a less volatile JP-8. Other chemicals like hydrazine are used to initiate starts in later engines. Our T-33 starts and runs fine on Commercial grade Jet A with Prist. Just have to watch for coking build up in the burner cans each year during inspection. If we had access to JP-8, it would reduce the coking. That said, can anybody answer the question for certain?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 6:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:45 am
Posts: 417
A26 Special K wrote:
Since the T-33 first flew in 1948 and JP-4 wasn’t developed until 1951, there might be a grain of truth in this story. JP-1 was a pure kerosene jet fuel developed in 1944. JP-4 was a kerosene-gasoline blend that was highly volatile but was needed to allow afterburners to ignite in the early engines or to get an engine restart at higher altitudes. It was retired in the mid 90’s for a less volatile JP-8. Other chemicals like hydrazine are used to initiate starts in later engines. Our T-33 starts and runs fine on Commercial grade Jet A with Prist. Just have to watch for coking build up in the burner cans each year during inspection. If we had access to JP-8, it would reduce the coking. That said, can anybody answer the question for certain?



How do you get the spinning started? Cartridge? Some sort of on-board motor to start spinning things?

Or some other way?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:53 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:27 pm
Posts: 2482
Electric starter motor powered by battery or ground power unit got it spinning. Fuel and ignition come on about 8% rpm to finish the spool up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:40 am 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club

Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:38 pm
Posts: 2209
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Don’t think the T-33 used gasoline for starting. My Stearman/ SuperCub instructor was an early jet instructor and flew all the early jets, some in combat. I do remember him saying the P-80A had a fuel spicket valve that when it was time to introduce fuel during rotation you would rotate the vale much like turning on a home garden hose.
The first jet designs like the Caproni has gasoline powered engines that turned the compressor section. Not a jet , by today’s definition. Also, most all turbine engines will run fine on aviation gasoline. The hand book will have limitations of say, 100 hours of a gas use per engine overhaul life and an altitude restriction say, 20,000.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:40 am 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club

Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:38 pm
Posts: 2209
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Don’t think the T-33 used gasoline for starting. My Stearman/ SuperCub instructor was an early jet instructor and flew all the early jets, some in combat. I do remember him saying the P-80A had a fuel spicket valve that when it was time to introduce fuel during rotation you would rotate the vale much like turning on a home garden hose.
The first jet designs like the Caproni has gasoline powered engines that turned the compressor section. Not a jet , by today’s definition. Also, most all turbine engines will run fine on aviation gasoline. The hand book will have limitations of say, 100 hours of a gas use per engine overhaul life and an altitude restriction say, 20,000. Will also have engine temp limits for operation.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 11:31 am
Posts: 596
Location: A pool in Palm Springs
As far as Ihave read, In the days before “Jet A” or Jet B...there was only kerosene and aviation fuels of varying octane levels. The early P-80 and even T-33 books say that you can run the plane on the lowest octane aviation fuels, but that is is harder to avoid over temping the engine. That said, the Kerosene that they did have was “cut” with as much as 50 percent of the lowest octane available fuel to make it better for the engines in some way. I would think that at the time they had 80 octane and 100 octane fuels available in quantity, as well as other blends of aviation fuels all the way up to 200/300 octane Methyl Triptane. It is important to remember that they did not have 100LL. I would believe the new USAF and engine manufacturers were experimenting over that time creating what became JP-4 which was finally standardized in 1951. This is essentially a 50/50 mix.

JP-1 was pure Kerosene, and was essentially what was specified in 1945. However it was unsuitable for a variety of military reasons.

Jet A in use today in vintage Jets, it’s not perfect.

Jet B is what we should be using, and it is very similar to JP-4. Its though to get at FBO’s today if not impossible. It is 30% Kerosene and 70% gasoline. I don’t know exactly what gasoline they specify but it’s not todays’ car gas.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:44 pm
Posts: 13
Maybe someone can verify but didn't the F3D skynight use avgas. The story I remember was when the marines would fly into airforce bases they would sometimes get an argument about refueling them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:13 pm
Posts: 659
Location: Indiana
The J-47's on the B-36 and KC-97L burned avgas.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 1:38 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:27 am
Posts: 3993
Location: Eastern Washington
WIXerGreg wrote:
The J-47's on the B-36 and KC-97L burned avgas.


Weren't they "detuned" to do so?

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 2:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:13 pm
Posts: 659
Location: Indiana
That's very possible, and something I couldn't answer without researching it myself. I'll do some digging on that when I get time.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:48 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:27 am
Posts: 3993
Location: Eastern Washington
I've read they were modified to use avgas. In what way I don't know. I'd be interested to learn.
Considering the last of the KC-97Ls weren't all that long ago (I remember seeing them when transiting SLC), I'm sure someone knows.

It's a safe bet the J-47s in F-86s didn't burn avgas.

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 5:58 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:13 pm
Posts: 5262
Location: Minnesota, USA
phixer wrote:
Maybe someone can verify but didn't the F3D skynight use avgas. The story I remember was when the marines would fly into airforce bases they would sometimes get an argument about refueling them.




Curiosity led me to a pilot's handbook for the F3D-2.

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircr ... craft.html


Instructions for fuel type are as follows:

FUEL: The cheapest, most readily available grade of MIL-F-5572

I do believe that describes 80/87 octane avgas.



AND THEN...

I stumbled onto the following link (After reading it, I feel like a military jet fuel historical expert):

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a186752.pdf

Some of the author's anecdotal text is quite entertaining (e.g. Captain Charles Hudson's private analysis of the "LF-1" fuel used for U-2 test & development).

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 10:26 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club

Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:38 pm
Posts: 2209
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
A few years ago we flew a family up to Omaha to Offutt to the museum up there to see the B-36. The family patriarch had been a B-36 crew chief and we got to tour the aircraft.
He said the J-47’s were typically started just before and used during takeoff and climb. They received a gas from the main fuel tanks and they only used a gas.
This makes sense as think of how much more complex it would be to have dissimilar engines, fuels, fuel systems, etc. if you were running low on one side and wanted to move the jet fuel from one outboard wing tank to another it would be a complex and difficult. It only makes sense to only have one type of fuel in the wing.
A gas shortens the life of jet engines but it is a satisfactory option when needed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 11:15 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:27 am
Posts: 3993
Location: Eastern Washington
I would imagine the J85s in C-119Ks and C-123Ks and J34s in P2V-7s also used avgas.

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Malo 1, michael luther and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group