Warbird Information Exchange

Thank you for this info. Folks, it is of critical importance to show your support for the Collings foundation through positive input on the above mentioned link. The FAA passenger ride program which gives the Exemption to allow this to occur is in serious jeopardy. There is already a U.S. Senator calling for the possibility of ending it. It is entirely possible that one result of the aftermath of this accident is that the FAA will put a stop to ALL paying passenger warbird flights. Even if they don't end it, they could make the governing rules and regulations onerous, complex and impractical, such as maintaining the same standard that Commercial Airliners have to adhere to. That would make these flights, even for powerhouses such as the Collings foundation, completely uneconomical and impractical. Europe has already seen an end to most of their vintage flying due to making operators comply with EU airliner standards for some of their warbirds. It is not inconceivable that in the near future, an everyday, average U.S. citizen will no longer be able to buy a ride in any W.W.II fighter or bomber. Imagine not being able to ever ride in a Mustang, B-17, B-29 or any other W.W.II fighter or bomber, unless you personally know the owner/operator and they're giving you a free ride. The threat is real and could happen.

As with everything in politics, and this is no exception, "public perception" trumps reality. I have friends heavily involved in this and work with Congress, the FAA and the legislative process on this program and others. They tell me that the FAA weighs public opinion heavily and uses these on-line comments from the link above to help shape their policies and decision-making process. So it's very important to make your voice known on this to the FAA and your Congress persons.

One example of a very misleading piece of information that is now shaping public perception is the following statement from the NTSB and reported on nearly every news site:


"Since 1982, when the NTSB began tracking safety issues in the heritage flights, there have been a total of 21 accidents involving World War-II era bombers, resulting in 23 fatalities and one injury -- not counting the death toll last Tuesday, Homendy said.

Three of the previous accidents involved B-17G bombers of the same type that crashed at the Bradley airport, Homendy said. Currently, there are 16 B-17s registered to fly in the U.S., including the one that crashed in Connecticut, according to the NTSB."


A few things to note for those of you reading this, so you can refute this very misleading statement:

1) The statement uses the phrase, "heritage flights" to imply that the statistic quoted only applies to those type of flights. This is incorrect. The numbers quoted above apply to all flight operations, including fire-bombing and government contract aircraft utilized in much higher risk applications.

2) In order to compare "apples to apples", one must separate passenger paying "heritage flights" from high-risk missions such as fire-fighting and/or government contract work. Anyone can go to the NTSB website and find the following information. I have already done so and it breaks down to the following aircraft and fatalities:


B-17- 6 total deaths, all from fire-fighting missions. No reported deaths in non-firefighting flights in the history of NTSB on-line record keeping, which goes back to 1962. Prior to 1962 it is possible there may have been deaths, but it will take an extensive search of paper archives, that are not on-line, to find this information. Here is a direct link to all B-17 fatalities in the NTSB database:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 39fbf11cbc

The above link shows 3 fatal crashes of the B-17, all of which were involved in fire-fighting missions.

Overall, no deaths in any B-17's on any "heritage flights".

B-24's / LB-30's - no reported deaths on any flights.

Overall, no deaths in any B-24's/LB-30's on any "heritage flights".

PB4Y- 6 total deaths, from 2 flights - both from fire-fighting missions. Here is the link:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 4e66d3a392

Overall, no deaths in any PB4Y's on any "heritage flights".

B-29- no reported deaths on any flights.

Overall, no deaths in any B-29's on any "heritage flights".

B-25 - 8 total reported deaths. Here is the link:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... acdf0a478a

Breakdown is as follows:

1975 - 2 deaths, aircraft was on a drug-running flight. Marijuana was on board the aircraft.
1970 - 1 death, privately owned aircraft, no passengers on board.
1967 - 2 deaths, aircraft was on fire-bombing mission for BLM.
1966 - 3 deaths, aircraft never found - privately owned corporate aircraft.

Overall, no deaths in any B-25's on any "heritage flights".

Martin B-26 - 5 deaths, all on one flight. Aircraft was on a training/proficiency flight. No paying passengers onboard.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... l&IType=FA

Overall, no deaths in any Martin B-26's on any "heritage flights".

Douglas A-26 - 7 deaths. Breakdown as follows:

Personal/Corporate - 5
Fire-bombing - 2

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 334c9fc40c

Overall, no deaths in any A-26's on any "heritage flights".

Douglas B-26 - 12 deaths. Breakdown as follows:

Commercial (unknown), but not "heritage flights": 7
Fire-Fighting: 5
Gov contract: 3

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... fa5a61d79d

Overall, no deaths in any Douglas B-26's on any "heritage flights".

Grumman/Eastern Motors TBM/TBF Avenger - 5 total deaths, breakdown as follows:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... eb9c03d380

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 2b832feab5

Personal - 1
Crop-Dusting - 1
Fire-fighting - 3

Overall, no deaths in any TBM /TBF's on any "heritage flights".

Douglas SBD/A-24 Dauntless - 1 fatality on a personal flight

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 5b7baebcce

Overall, no deaths in any SBD/A-24's on any "heritage flights".

Curtiss SB2C/A-25 Helldiver - no reported deaths on any flights

Overall, no deaths in any SB2C/A-25's on any "heritage flights".

P-2V Neptune - 14 total deaths, all from fire-fighting missions. This aircraft is debatable to even include in the quoted statistic from above. Though the aircraft flew prior to the official end of W.W.II, it did not see service until post-war.

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 6caa186519

Overall, no deaths in any P-2V's on any "heritage flights".

3) I believe that the above covers just about every W.W.II bomber used or possibly used on a "heritage flight" in the past in the United States. I believe the information above to be correct, but someone please double check my work, so I can edit any mistakes I might have made. So, based on the above aircraft, we have the following stat's, all according to the on-line NTSB database:

Total deaths, all categories, all aircraft: 64
Total deaths, from fire-fighting/gov contract work: 41
Total deaths, other than above categories: 23
Total deaths, on "heritage flights": 0

Keep in mind that these above numbers are strictly from the on-line NTSB database, which goes back to 1962. These numbers, expectedly, don't agree with the NTSB statement above, which states they go back to 1982.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a fatality involved in any "heritage flight" for a W.W.II bomber in the United States. Up until the Collings accident, the industry has had a perfect safety record, with zero fatalities.

4) A lot of people don't understand the differences between the certification and the standards between various warbird aircraft. The only thing the general public needs to realize is that fire-fighting and gov contract aircraft are held to a much lesser standard than normal, Part 91, warbird "heritage flight" standards. Fire-fighting and gov contract aircraft are exempt from all U.S. government Code of Federal Regulations that apply to civil aircraft. Combining this with high risk flying in mountainous terrain, at high elevations while fighting fires and it's easy to understand why fire-fighting has a historically higher fatality rate than normal Part 91 warbird operations. "Heritage Flight" aircraft, under FAA Exemption, must adhere to basically Part 135 Commercial Standards. This is a much higher standard than just normal warbird operations. So, already, "Heritage Flight" operators, which included the Collings Foundation, have had to maintain and adhere to a much higher standard than the rest of General Aviation. Based on this, it is clear that the higher standard for "Heritage Flight" aircraft, operated under the Living History Flight Experience program, is working. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't see the above statistics that I pulled from the NTSB database.

I bring up all of this to help dispel bad information circulating out there right now, including the above quoted statement from the NTSB. The public, unfortunately, is not educated on this subject and automatically jump on the bandwagon to assume that giving rides in W.W.II bombers is unsafe. The statistics suggest otherwise. I urge everybody to do your own research and help sway public opinion on our side of continuing these important operations. According to my friends, we are in serious jeopardy of this program ending. Please sign the above link in support of the Collings foundation and help the warbird cause.

Thank you for this info. Folks, it is of critical importance to show your support for the Collings foundation through positive input on the above mentioned link. The FAA passenger ride program which gives the Exemption to allow this to occur is in serious jeopardy. There is already a U.S. Senator calling for the possibility of ending it. It is entirely possible that one result of the aftermath of this accident is that the FAA will put a stop to ALL paying passenger warbird flights. Even if they don't end it, they could make the governing rules and regulations onerous, complex and impractical, such as maintaining the same standard that Commercial Airliners have to adhere to. That would make these flights, even for powerhouses such as the Collings foundation, completely uneconomical and impractical. Europe has already seen an end to most of their vintage flying due to making operators comply with EU airliner standards for some of their warbirds. It is not inconceivable that in the near future, an everyday, average U.S. citizen will no longer be able to buy a ride in any W.W.II fighter or bomber. Imagine not being able to ever ride in a Mustang, B-17, B-29 or any other W.W.II fighter or bomber, unless you personally know the owner/operator and they're giving you a free ride. The threat is real and could happen.

As with everything in politics, and this is no exception, "public perception" trumps reality. I have friends heavily involved in this and work with Congress, the FAA and the legislative process on this program and others. They tell me that the FAA weighs public opinion heavily and uses these on-line comments from the link above to help shape their policies and decision-making process. So it's very important to make your voice known on this to the FAA and your Congress persons.

One example of a very misleading piece of information that is now shaping public perception is the following statement from the NTSB and reported on nearly every news site:


"Since 1982, when the NTSB began tracking safety issues in the heritage flights, there have been a total of 21 accidents involving World War-II era bombers, resulting in 23 fatalities and one injury -- not counting the death toll last Tuesday, Homendy said.

Three of the previous accidents involved B-17G bombers of the same type that crashed at the Bradley airport, Homendy said. Currently, there are 16 B-17s registered to fly in the U.S., including the one that crashed in Connecticut, according to the NTSB."


A few things to note for those of you reading this, so you can refute this very misleading statement:

1) The statement uses the phrase, "heritage flights" to imply that the statistic quoted only applies to those type of flights. This is incorrect. The numbers quoted above apply to all flight operations, including fire-bombing and government contract aircraft utilized in much higher risk applications.

2) In order to compare "apples to apples", one must separate passenger paying "heritage flights" from high-risk missions such as fire-fighting and/or government contract work. Anyone can go to the NTSB website and find the following information. I have already done so and it breaks down to the following aircraft and fatalities:


B-17- 6 total deaths, all from fire-fighting missions. No reported deaths in non-firefighting flights in the history of NTSB on-line record keeping, which goes back to 1962. Prior to 1962 it is possible there may have been deaths, but it will take an extensive search of paper archives, that are not on-line, to find this information. Here is a direct link to all B-17 fatalities in the NTSB database:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 39fbf11cbc

The above link shows 3 fatal crashes of the B-17, all of which were involved in fire-fighting missions.

Overall, no deaths in any B-17's on any "heritage flights".

B-24's / LB-30's - no reported deaths on any flights.

Overall, no deaths in any B-24's/LB-30's on any "heritage flights".

PB4Y- 6 total deaths, from 2 flights - both from fire-fighting missions. Here is the link:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 4e66d3a392

Overall, no deaths in any PB4Y's on any "heritage flights".

B-29- no reported deaths on any flights.

Overall, no deaths in any B-29's on any "heritage flights".

B-25 - 8 total reported deaths. Here is the link:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... acdf0a478a

Breakdown is as follows:

1975 - 2 deaths, aircraft was on a drug-running flight. Marijuana was on board the aircraft.
1970 - 1 death, privately owned aircraft, no passengers on board.
1967 - 2 deaths, aircraft was on fire-bombing mission for BLM.
1966 - 3 deaths, aircraft never found - privately owned corporate aircraft.

Overall, no deaths in any B-25's on any "heritage flights".

Martin B-26 - 5 deaths, all on one flight. Aircraft was on a training/proficiency flight. No paying passengers onboard.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... l&IType=FA

Overall, no deaths in any Martin B-26's on any "heritage flights".

Douglas A-26 - 7 deaths. Breakdown as follows:

Personal/Corporate - 5
Fire-bombing - 2

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 334c9fc40c

Overall, no deaths in any A-26's on any "heritage flights".

Douglas B-26 - 12 deaths. Breakdown as follows:

Commercial (unknown), but not "heritage flights": 7
Fire-Fighting: 5
Gov contract: 3

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... fa5a61d79d

Overall, no deaths in any Douglas B-26's on any "heritage flights".

Grumman/Eastern Motors TBM/TBF Avenger - 5 total deaths, breakdown as follows:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... eb9c03d380

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 2b832feab5

Personal - 1
Crop-Dusting - 1
Fire-fighting - 3

Overall, no deaths in any TBM /TBF's on any "heritage flights".

Douglas SBD/A-24 Dauntless - 1 fatality on a personal flight

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 5b7baebcce

Overall, no deaths in any SBD/A-24's on any "heritage flights".

Curtiss SB2C/A-25 Helldiver - no reported deaths on any flights

Overall, no deaths in any SB2C/A-25's on any "heritage flights".

P-2V Neptune - 14 total deaths, all from fire-fighting missions. This aircraft is debatable to even include in the quoted statistic from above. Though the aircraft flew prior to the official end of W.W.II, it did not see service until post-war.

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 6caa186519

Overall, no deaths in any P-2V's on any "heritage flights".

3) I believe that the above covers just about every W.W.II bomber used or possibly used on a "heritage flight" in the past in the United States. I believe the information above to be correct, but someone please double check my work, so I can edit any mistakes I might have made. So, based on the above aircraft, we have the following stat's, all according to the on-line NTSB database:

Total deaths, all categories, all aircraft: 64
Total deaths, from fire-fighting/gov contract work: 41
Total deaths, other than above categories: 23
Total deaths, on "heritage flights": 0

Keep in mind that these above numbers are strictly from the on-line NTSB database, which goes back to 1962. These numbers, expectedly, don't agree with the NTSB statement above, which states they go back to 1982.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a fatality involved in any "heritage flight" for a W.W.II bomber in the United States. Up until the Collings accident, the industry has had a perfect safety record, with zero fatalities.

4) A lot of people don't understand the differences between the certification and the standards between various warbird aircraft. The only thing the general public needs to realize is that fire-fighting and gov contract aircraft are held to a much lesser standard than normal, Part 91, warbird "heritage flight" standards. Fire-fighting and gov contract aircraft are exempt from all U.S. government Code of Federal Regulations that apply to civil aircraft. Combining this with high risk flying in mountainous terrain, at high elevations while fighting fires and it's easy to understand why fire-fighting has a historically higher fatality rate than normal Part 91 warbird operations. "Heritage Flight" aircraft, under FAA Exemption, must adhere to basically Part 135 Commercial Standards. This is a much higher standard than just normal warbird operations. So, already, "Heritage Flight" operators, which included the Collings Foundation, have had to maintain and adhere to a much higher standard than the rest of General Aviation. Based on this, it is clear that the higher standard for "Heritage Flight" aircraft, operated under the Living History Flight Experience program, is working. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't see the above statistics that I pulled from the NTSB database.

I bring up all of this to help dispel bad information circulating out there right now, including the above quoted statement from the NTSB. The public, unfortunately, is not educated on this subject and automatically jump on the bandwagon to assume that giving rides in W.W.II bombers is unsafe. The statistics suggest otherwise. I urge everybody to do your own research and help sway public opinion on our side of continuing these important operations. According to my friends, we are in serious jeopardy of this program ending. Please sign the above link in support of the Collings foundation and help the warbird cause.

Thanks for adding that. My 1st thought when she said that was .... HUH ? Who's butt did they pull that number out of ?
I knew right off, most of the reported number killed were in fire bomber crashes, but HOW MANY ?
Your breakdown makes it so much more clear. "Thanks again !

Thanks for adding that. My 1st thought when she said that was .... HUH ? Who's butt did they pull that number out of ?
I knew right off, most of the reported number killed were in fire bomber crashes, but HOW MANY ?
Your breakdown makes it so much more clear. "Thanks again !

Yes, very nice work OD/G! Have you sent copies of this to folks who can make the best use of it, as well as folks who can take measures to correct their earlier faulty research?

There's a separate thread on this. None of the deaths were in firefighting aircraft

Most of them were in CAF aircraft (CASA 2-111, B-26 Marauder, PBY and A-20), plus the Clear Lake PV-2 Harpoon.

Would the NTSB have any investigation involving the gear collapse of Aluminum Overcast a few years ago? If they did, that would make three before this incident... 909's previous crash, Aluminum Overcast's gear collapse, and Liberty Belle's in-flight fire and subsequent emergency landing. Perhaps that's what they're referring to?

- Dennis S.
Thornton, CO USA

No, I haven't, and there is no need to. I know for a fact that there are many people in the Collings foundation that read the WIX forums, including some at the top of their leadership. They are composed of some very smart people, and I'm sure they have already compiled this list prior to my posting it. The Collings Foundation is in very good hands, as they have excellent leadership and many people who can navigate through these turbulent times. Give them some time, they will survive, as long as the FAA doesn't shut down the passenger ride program. If the FAA does shut down the ride program entirely, that will be catastrophic for the Collings Foundation. If that happens, all bets are off.

Preaching to the choir is always safe, but I was more thinking of the Marine Colonel "aviation consultant" on NBC or ABC the next morning who's comments were rife with errors. Generally Marines are all about being correct and big on heritage and he might make a correction if given the chance...he's certainly amongst the folks to get a corrected hearing on the material and maybe a feature piece or two on the safe history and value of heritage flights. And of course there is the NTSB lady and Blumenthal or his Republican cohort...

Can you provide a link to that thread? I don't recall reading it here on the WIX.

I don't know what the NTSB used as the basis for that statement. Even their own statement at the NTSB press conference on 3 Oct here:

https://youtu.be/RoLU-I6C4Uo?t=422

states that 3 B-17 accidents have been investigated by the NTSB since 1982.

That statement is incorrect, according to the NTSB database, here:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 975cfd7362

There have only been 2.