Warbird Information Exchange

About training....

A friend, a long time restorer and pilot, attributed the drop of some classic prices to their demanding nature. Specifically, the Beech 17 having restored one and flying it for years. Despite having thousands of hours of tailwheel time in everything from 450 Stearmans to T-6s to Mustangs, he treated his Staggerwing with a lot for respect...Specifically on the ground. He said it was one of those airplanes you didn't relax with until it was in the hangar.

It's not something easily mastered. A dedicated warbird pilot would be able to fly it, but not necessarily some guy coming out of a Cirrus, PC-12, or King Air.

While you can buy training g in a T-6, Stearman or Mustang....be prepared to travel or buy your own and hire an instructor...getting proficient in something like the Staggerwing or other classics is tougher. Remember, most 17's don't have dual controls...just the throw-over column.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.

Isn't this what "training" is for in the first place? Nobody pops out of the womb knowing how to perform a 3-point landing or manage a radial engine.

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My .02

I think warbirds are in no real danger. While I DO agree that the days of someone with an income of less than $250K annual owning a fighter are long gone.
If you ONLY make $100K a year join the CAF! Or find someone who is willing to let you sweep the floor and learn a little here and there. it will take a lot of effort but you can still be around these planes and learn. I think the BIG difference is so many people today want to "Have it all" out of the gate.

Having had the opportunity to work around cars a fair amount I think that they are somewhat similar. The guys who own GT-40s, Mercedes CLK-LMs, 911 GT3s, and so forth have a TON of cash. But that is not necessarily a bad thing - good heavens I can only imagine the nice young man with a Subaru WRX down the street jumping in a 1965 289 Cobra - the car and driver would be toast in short order.

I agree with Jim and Randy- training is crucial and not something that should be easily rushed through. There is a reason that AF pilots spend so much time in the T-6 II, then the T-28 (soon to be the T-7A) before they are allowed to get into fighter. . . . or a tanker. . . .

Warbirds will be ok as long as those of us who are interested - even if only mildly so - have the patience to learn and work with/for those folks who have the planes.

Tom P.

Yes, absolutely, But, the 24, 25, 17, and the T-6 require fundamental stick and rudder skills before setting foot in the cockpit. Most of the airline types hadn't flown a multi recip since their initial training...even the "old" guys. My first year teaching ground school for Collings I asked the group (around 50 pilots), how many have tailwheel endorsements or flown tailwheel airplanes. 5 people raised their hands. The herd was self thinning. It was much much more difficult to un-train bad habits, such as relying on, or over using the brakes, jockeying the throttles, not flaring, chopping the throttles on short final, feet on the floor during cross-countries, not keeping the ball in the center, staying on the centerline or landing straight, not saying "UnitedDeltaSouthwestContinental 224J" on the radio. I won't lie, after a while it was maddening. What I had the hardest time with was relaying the fact that these airplanes are/were, not trainers. My advice to everyone that wanted to volunteer as pilot and had the required time was to go get Champ, Cub, Citabria, Stearman and T-6 time. I really pushed pilots to go to Warbird Adventures (even before I worked there). The absolute best pilots I had in the program owned their own airplane(s) and most were antique owners. While I was there I opened the door to just about everyone that wanted to participate. I was given a gift being able to fly those airplanes for so long and I wanted to "pay it forward" to those that shared the same love. Some worked out, most didn't, but it wasn't for a lack of trying. On a funnier note...I flew the T-33 with Rick Sharpe...out over Galveston Bay, on my second roll, I heard from the back seat..."take your feet off the pedals". Magic.

Jim

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www.spiritof44.com

I always thought the historic railroad operating scene might be a useful comparison. (Specifically steam engines, since it seems to me that steam is to diesel as piston is to jet.) It's another vehicle preservation/restoration movement, but given when their vehicles entered service they have at least a good 50 years on us. So where they are right now might be where we are in 50 years.

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Tri-State Warbird Museum Collections Manager & Museum Attendant

Warbird Philosophy Webmaster

John B.



My take may be overly simplistic.

- Ford T vs a 69 Mustang Shelby
- Sopwith Camel vs a Spitfire

Both the Camel & Spitfire can be replicated today.

Yet I think that passion is linked to childhood. Why do I like WW2 warbirds? An early small book series called Battler Britton. Which my dad had a HUGE amount of them: https://ukcomics.fandom.com/wiki/Battler_Britton

As we get older we invest time and money into these childhood memories. I think most current collectors are still driven by that early passion or one that is driven by their parents or relatives. Just think of their current age.

Of course my generation will never be able to afford and fly a Vietnam era jet but I think that the current warbird movement was mostly initially driven by people that had a very strong attachment for whatever reasons to WW2.

Everything from my perspective is driven by that. My 30'ish year old neighbour....is so happy...he finally found his 1992 dream Honda Civic

So in 50 years......will these be museum pieces.....or still actively flown with passion? But as they say. As long as there is a market.

Cheers and great discussions!

Michel

Because of the number of survivors and their low cost...there is no need to reproduce a Model T.

Same with Mustangs.
Shelby Mustangs are a different animal...but there is a firm that makes "new" '66 Shelby GT350s for a price (more than you can buy a original fir). Likewise, you can buy a new '67-68 Mustang fastback shell and then easily convert it into a Shelby. The '69 Shelby was more of an appearance package...it had the upgraded Mach One running gear, but it's appearance was changed thanks to 22 pieces of governor and different bumpers and tail lights.

Of course if you make your own, it lacks the provenance of one that came from Shelby (or Ford...'68-69 models were built by a contractor in Michigan not from the iconic Shelby factory at LAX airport). The Shebly registry keeps everyone reasonably honest.
At least with a Spitfire, if you can get the dataplate, you can make your new aircraft original!

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.

I'm going to piggyback on Jim Harley's comments: I got my license in 1995 in a C-152. Within a year I had obtained my tail wheel endorsement and started renting Citabrias. In 2006, I had the chance to obtain a 1954 Yak 18 tail wheel aircraft and after that joined a T-6 club. All told, I have nearly 700 hours tail wheel time (about half my total time). I have taken up numerous pilots in my Yak and the T-6 and many had no idea how to coordinate turns with your feet. I met Jim Harley about 15 years ago and with his urging I obtained my commercial multi IFR and had a chance to fly with CF for one summer (Thanks Jim!). Since I was on a roll, I eventually ended up getting my CFI.
The biggest problem with training is finding it and paying for it and this will be the biggest problem for warbirds going into the future. There's plenty of shops around to restore an airplane, but getting the intensive training to fly it properly will cost a significant amount that few will have. Most people who dream about owning and flying a warbird usually just look at the purchase price and don't factor in all of the training, fuel, oil, and maintenance that will be required to be proficient in the aircraft and that cost makes the purchase price of a T-6 (or bigger) look small.
I had once had a chance to participate in a T-6 formation flyover of a veteran's event and just for fun decided to figure out how much it cost me to be in that position where I was able to join the formation and I came up with a number over $250K spent over 20 years. That for me is no small change as I work two jobs to own & fly the Yak. Now, think of the cost of someone who wants to be proficient in a Mustang or even bigger iron and the cost goes way up and the pool of people who have the time and money to do this gets very small...

Another aspect to consider in your conversation.

I know a couple of financially stable Warbird owners who no longer fly their Airplanes due to the training points previously stated. Perhaps their level of passion for flying warbirds isn’t that strong.
Just because someone with deep pockets can afford to own a high performance warbird doesn’t mean they are also interested in property training themselves to learn to fly it.
$$$ can’t buy you experience and training, it can only pay for it. You still have to put In the effort.
The passion and desire to own and/or fly High performance warbirds needs to be astronomical IMO. Far too much to invest in time and money if one isn’t “all in all the way”.

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[Thread title is ridiculous btw]

The two important factors with that analogy, is safety and regulation considerations, and fuel availability.

The former is much more onerous as regards aviation, and AVGAS is going to be much harder to come by, if not impossible to get in 50 years time compared with coal - although I'm sure coal will be much more expensive in 50 years time as more and more coal mines close with enviromental pressures.

An addendum about comparing Steam Locomotives vs. flying Warbirds. As someone who spent five summers as a fireman on a steam locomotive, I can vouch there are many parallels. Both are tightly controlled by government authorities (FRA for Steam, FAA for warbirds). The biggest problem steam operators have is finding qualified mechanics and crew. None of the steam locomotive builders are around anymore and often parts must be made from scratch. Finding a mechanic who has experience in steam technology is often difficult. Just as in warbirds, there are cottage industries which cater to the needs of the steam locomotive world. In regards to crews: there is much less training needed for the average small tourist railway than what flying warbirds requires, but some of the major tourist railroads with challenging routes spend considerable time training their crews how to handle heavy trains over grades as steep as 4%. Just as in the warbird community, I've seen outfits that are class acts with impressive professionalism, and those that sadly didn't exhibit such high standards...

All valid points, but this seems more like a criticism of Collings' requirements to join the tour more than anything else.

Since the thread topic is about "the future of the warbird movement", and I thoroughly agree that training is a cornerstone to safely continuing it into the future, we all have to realize that we don't live in a world where the general population of pilots has been brought up flying taildraggers. The next generation of warbird pilots is going to have to be raised and trained, rather than simply walking through the door of the hangar with the requisite flying experience or money.

This means outreach and spending our own time and money and effort to bring new pilots (and maintainers, etc) into the fold. My current contribution is getting young pilots involved with taildraggers and warbirds at the ground floor, and giving them an opportunity to get warbird taildragger time with the PT-19 flying club (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66868). I am also the Ops Officer of a CAF squadron with a T-6, and we are trying to use the PT-19 club as a conduit to get people experienced and interested enough to sponsor and learn to fly the Six. It requires the people with experience to be specifically focused on finding the next generation and guiding them through the process. As we all know, it is expensive, time consuming, and far from an "instant gratification" pursuit.

There’s a reason why Collings (and other warbird ride-givers like CAF Airpower Tour) cast a wide net for people to fly rides for them; they need people to keep the airplanes giving rides and earning money to keep them alive, and the pool of experienced, trained, and current pilots on those aircraft types is extremely small. The pool is smaller than the pool of people who have the time, ability, and desire to spend on the road giving rides during the summer.

Given that...the tour operators accept that they're going to have to provide a certain level of training to the people they get to walk through the door who have the right personality and ability to donate their time and experience. That's the tradeoff.

But my point is, no pilot knows how to do these things inherently. Airmanship is portable between aircraft types, and that's the valuable judgment and decisionmaking part that takes years to obtain. A high-time airline dude doesn't lose all his airmanship skills simply because he's never flown a multiengine heavy without nosewheel steering. It is in type-specific training where they're going to *get* that knowledge and experience.

Just in the same way that you aren't lacking airmanship skill by not knowing that jets don't require the footwork a piston fighter does; you wouldn't know it unless you had the training or experience to:


In many respects Collings and Airpower tour both do the warbird community a great service by training substantially more pilots then the collective warbird community ordinarily would have trained if there wasn't this business of barnstorming. They're creating a whole new group of warbird trained and experienced pilots who might not otherwise exist. But it isn’t altruism, it is business.

It is quite a great symbiotic relationship, really. The airplanes get the exposure and money allowing them to keep flying. The pilots get opportunity for training and experience in types that they wouldn't otherwise get. The public gets exposure to the airplanes, the organizations, and the people involved in "keeping 'em flying". The warbird community in general benefits from all these things.

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If I may, I would like to add a different perspective on the Warbird Movement.

Not everyone will be able to buy / fly / maintain a warbird.

But, there are "sideline" aspects that do not require a fortune to enjoy:

Cockpit restoring / collecting.
Gunsight collecting

Just to mention two. There are many variations to the areas of interest that any individual can pursue.

There are those who collect and document photos of a specific unit.
There are those who restore ground support equipment.
What about radios?
Turrets?

I knew a long time ago, that my dream of owning a high-powered warbird, was completely outside of my possibilities.

BUT, I managed to acquire a PT-19 project, and truly enjoyed meeting very nice people across the USA in the process of purchasing parts, and following leads.

All those who collect, who store, who stash, who seek airplane parts, are part of the warbird movement.


Saludos,


Tulio, el warbirdero

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Why take the best part of life out of your life, when you can have life with the best part of your life in your life?

I am one of them 'futbol' people.

Will the previous owner has pics of this double cabin sample

GOOD MORNING, WELCOME TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Press "1" for English.
Press "2" to disconnect until you have learned to speak English.

Sooooo, how am I going to know to press 1 or 2, if I do not speak English????

Tulio, that is good advice, thanks. The PT-19 is easy to land, sips fuel and is very pretty and popular. When you get done you will really have something. Plus, there are a lot of parts out there.

Marineair...re. PT-19 parts availability: "A lot of parts out there"..
Even for the Ranger?

How about airframe parts...or are they stuff you can make, in other words nothing made of "unobtainium"?

Years ago when getting off a jetliner, I noticed a the pilot was wearing a PT-23 lapel pin. I asked if he had one (he was shocked someone knew what it was) and said he had a couple.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.