Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:51 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:48 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:48 pm
Posts: 1625
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
George W. Orr wrote:
Airport Conducts $1,500,000 Business Annually
The Facilities and Activities of Fixed Base Operators at Roosevelt Field

[Unrelated paragraphs omitted]

One of the interesting contributions
Roosevelt Field has made to aviation
is its Historical Museum. Noting how rap-
idly even the most common types of war-
time airplanes were becoming extinct, the
Field management began collecting speci-
mens of pioneer and war period machines.
Although only about two years old, the
Museum has one of the most valuable and
interesting aviation collections now ex-
isting, including a model 10 Bleriot and
a Tom Baldwin pusher, both of a vintage
of about 1911, an OX-J1 Standard, a
Curtiss JN4C, commonly known as a
Canuck, a Sopwith Snipe, a 504 K Avro,
Nungesser's Nieuport, an Aeromarine 39
B, a model 13 Spad, and Bellanca's first
cabin monoplane. There is also a very
complete exhibit of engines, from early
pioneer days to those in modern use. The
Museum was closed last year for exhibit
of its rarest pieces at the World's Fair,
but will be re-opened again this spring.

[Unrelated paragraphs omitted]

(Source: George W. Orr, “Airport Conducts $1,500,000 Business Annually,” Aero Digest, May 1934, 61.)

Previous Posts in the Series

_________________
Tri-State Warbird Museum Collections Manager & Museum Attendant

Warbird Philosophy Webmaster


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:17 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:48 pm
Posts: 1625
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Suffolk County News wrote:
Roosevelt Field Air Museum
Gets Old French Neuiport


Undoubtedly the most interesting
war-time airplane procured to date by
the Roosevelt Field Aviation Historical
Museum is an old French Neuiport
18, a combination training and obser-
vation airplane used by the French
Air Corps during the World War. This
old battle wagon, built in 1915, was lo-
cated in Florida, N.Y., stored away in
a barn and has since been trucked to
the Field, and under the direction of
Hugh Copeland is being restored to its
original war-time condition. Long be-
fore airplanes were equipped with ma-
chine guns[,] these Neuiports flew over
the battlefields of Francec and made
war with the enemy. An observer arm-
ed with an ordinary rifle stood up in
the rear cockpit and took pot shots
at all enemy aircraft that came with-
in his range. This is believed to be
the only Neuiport of this model in
America.

(Source: “Roosevelt Field Air Museum Gets Old French Neuiport,” Suffolk County News, August 12, 1932, 10.)

Aero Digest wrote:
Roosevelt Field Adds to Museum

ONE OF THE most interesting and
best known of the war-time airplanes
procured to date by Roosevelt Field Avia-
tion Historical Museum is an old single
seater, French Spad 13, a type used by
many of the Allies during the latter days
of the war. This plane was procured for
exhibit from Lieut. Benjamin Kelsey of
the Army Air Corps who purchased it
several years ago and stored it away.

The plane is now at the School hangar
where it is being restored to its original
appearance.

(Source: “Roosevelt Field Adds to Museum,” Aero Digest, March 1934, 58.)

Carl B. Ogilvie wrote:
Do you know that in the United
States there is a Nieuport which
was flown by Charles Nungesser? Yes,
I have seen it and you may, too, if you
happen to drop in the Roosevelt Field
Historical Museum. And there you
might also see George Pickenpack, who
did a loit of flying with Nungesser. I
asked K.S. Lindsay, Operations Man-
ager of the field, to tell about Nun-
gesser's ship and his visit to this coun-
try. Mr. Lindsay said:

"Through communication with the
United States military attache in Paris,
France, we have learned that in 1924,
Captain Charles Nungesser and two
French pilots brought a Nieuport 18, a
Potez and a Hanriot, all French air-
planes, to this country. They made a
barnstorming tour, putting on stunting
exhibitions at county fairs, air meets
and large gatherings. Of these three
machines brought over, the Nieuport
which is now in our museum, is the only
one left in the country to the best of
our knowledge. We have made at-
tempts to locate the other machines
without any success.

"While making these barnstorming
tours, Captain Nungesser conceived the
idea of making an aviation movie thrill-
er. The picture, taken on Roosevelt
Field about 1925, was called the 'Sky
Raider' and was, I believe, the first real
aviation movie thriller ever filmed in
this country. Three pilots still flying
on Roosevelt Field took an active part
in that picture and remember Captain
Nungesser very well. One of these
pilots, George Pickenpack, is today one
of the Roosevelt Field Corporation staff
pilots.

"I am told that, shortly after the
picture was made, Captain Nungesser
had some financial reverses and lost
these three machines. The Nieuport
turned up later in a New York ware-
house and was purchased by Mr. Rus-
sell Simpson, now head of the Aero
Brokerage Service here on the field.
The original engine, a 130-horsepower
Clerget rotary engine, was removed by
Mr. Simpson and a eighty-horsepower
Le Rhone engine was installed in its
place. The machine was flown here for
a few years and then disappeared.

"Old airplanes, being large and bulky,
are rarely found on airports today. In
nearly every isntance, we have located
them stored away in barns and hay
lofts, often in towns not even having
an airport and, strange to say, most
old planes are found by aviation model
people who write and tell us about
them.

"I spent several months tracing
Nungesser's Nieuport and at last lo-
cated it stored away in a hay loft up
in Florida, N.Y. It was subsequently
purchased and brought back to Roose-
velt Field, where it was restored to its
original appearance and condition."

(Source: Carl B. Ogilvie, “Nungesser: The Man of Iron,” Popular Aviation, June 1934, 396.)

Popular Aviation wrote:
THAT Nungesser article by Carl B.
Ogilvie has raised a lot of com-
ment, particularly in respect to the
Hanriot brought to this country. But
it is for Frank P. Heck, 5439 Bryn-
hurst Ave., Los Angeles, Calif., to tell
of a Hariot pursuit plane of which he
sends a photo. This is what he has to
say.

I am sending you this message in
the hope that it will be of interest to
yourselves and to Mr. Carl Ogilvie. I
am a newsstand reader of P.A., and in
reading the article, "Nungesser-the
Man of Iron," written by Mr. Ogilvie,
I ran across something that immedi-
ately recalled a fact to my mind.

In this article, in the June issue, Mr.
Ogilvie states that Charles Nungesser
and two French pilots brought over to
this country a Nieuport, Potez and a
Hanriot. I believe he says that they
were brought over in 1924. He fur-
ther states that, to his knowledge, the
Nieuport is the only one left in this
country and that it is now in the
Roosevelt Field Historical Museum.

To my sincerest knowledge, I think
that I have visible evidence, as shown
in the accompanying photograph of the
Hanriot pursuit plane mentioned in
this article. Further evidence may be
had from the insignia on the side of
the fuselage.

I am somewhat of a "photo fan" and
happened to possess this particular pic-
ture in my collection. This plane may
still be found in a hangar adjacent to
the Douglas Aircraft Company, Santa
Monica, Calif.

I snapped this photo the day that
this ship was flown for exhibition over
the race course during the 1933 Na-
tional Air Races. I remember this
ship six or eight years ago; completely
torn down and stacked away in a cor-
ner. It is now reconditioned and is
capable of being flown.

This is, indeed, very interesting and
it would be a fine idea if some more
of these old-timers were reconditions
and flown. There are a number of
wartime ships that only need a little
work to put them in the air for the
enjoyment of the present generation.

(Source: “An Airy Chat with the Editor,” Popular Aviation, August 1934, 133.)

American Airman wrote:
..World War I
Section..


Mr. Charles Donald recently sent
in these interesting photos of this
old Thomas Morse Scout taken in
the early 30's at Roosevelt Field
(once called Fitzmaurice Field) on
Long Island, New York.

The flying devil insignia on the side
of the fuselage of the "Tommy"
is now preserved among Mr. Don-
ald's excellent, personal World
War I collection.

The Thomas Morse Scout is
owned by Mr. Paul Kotze, who
completely reconditioned it and has
made it a beautiful and flyable
plane once again. The ship was
featured on the cover of our June
1960 AIRMAN, along with Part I
of the Thomas Morse Story. His
intentions are to donate this plane
to the National Air Museum in
Washington, D. C.

(Source: “World War I Section,” American Airman, August 1961, 9.)

If the S-4C mentioned above, 38934, did ever make to the National Air Museum, it didn't remain there. It is currently on loan, reportedly from Mr. Kotze, to the Cradle of Aviation Museum.[1][2]

_________________
Tri-State Warbird Museum Collections Manager & Museum Attendant

Warbird Philosophy Webmaster


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:42 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:06 am
Posts: 1056
Location: Virginia
The Roosevelt Field collection was disbursed in the 1950s when the airport closed and eventually was covered up with a shopping center.
The Nieuport is an 83, the 18 might refer to the square meters of wing area. It went to NASM, then got traded to Old Rhinebeck, where it flew for several years, and is now on static display. Nungesser's Hanriot is of course at Planes of Fame in Chino now.
The SPAD 13 (XIII) went to Cole Palen and was one of the founding aircraft of his Old Rhinebeck collection. It flew there for a number of years, then was on static display, and in his will was left to the US Air Force Museum in Dayton, where it is on display now, restored.
The Snipe also went to Cole Palen, flew for a couple of years before crashing, was repaired and on static display for many years, then was left to NASM in Cole's will, and is now on display there.
The Avro 504K also went to Old Rhinebeck, and was sold to Canada, where it flew for awhile, and is now on museum display.
The Bleriot and Baldwin Pusher both went to NASM (not called that at the time), the Bleriot was restored and is on display downtown, the Baldwin is on display unrestored at Udvar-Hazy.
The Aeromarine 39B went to Cole Palen and was being transported to Florida for restoration when it caught fire on the trailer and was destroyed.
The Bellanca cabin monoplane went to NASM and is now on display, restored, at Udvar-Hazy.
I believe that Cole Palen also got the JN-4C Canuck and traded it to Frank Tallman for a Nieuport 28.



-

_________________
http://www.biplanerides1.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 2:04 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:48 pm
Posts: 1625
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
I was wondering what happened to the rest of the aircraft. Thanks for the excellent summary!

Baldeagle wrote:
The Aeromarine 39B went to Cole Palen and was being transported to Florida for restoration when it caught fire on the trailer and was destroyed.

How does this even happen?

_________________
Tri-State Warbird Museum Collections Manager & Museum Attendant

Warbird Philosophy Webmaster


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 2:49 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:06 am
Posts: 1056
Location: Virginia
I believe that Cole was stopped at a gas station, and it is thought that someone threw a cigarette on the trailer. The Aeromarine was covered with cotton fabric and nitrate dope, very flammable, poof. There are a few parts still at Rhinebeck.



-

_________________
http://www.biplanerides1.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:44 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:48 pm
Posts: 1625
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Baldeagle wrote:
I believe that Cole was stopped at a gas station, and it is thought that someone threw a cigarette on the trailer. The Aeromarine was covered with cotton fabric and nitrate dope, very flammable, poof. There are a few parts still at Rhinebeck.

Ah, that makes sense. The fact that the airplane burned didn't surprise me, but I couldn't figure out what could have caused a fire while it was sitting disassembled on a trailer.

Apparently, by 1936, there were much grander plans for the museum:
Brooklyn Times Union wrote:
National Museum of Aviation
Planned at Roosevelt Field


-----

Air Service Post 501, A. L., to Collect Relics of Early
Days of Flying in Hangar F.


-----

Roosevelt Field, Dec. 28.-Col. Charles Wayne Kerwood,
commander of Air Service Post 501, A. L., today revealed
plans for a national museum of aviation to be established in
Hangar F on field made famous in the early annals of trans-
atlantic flyin. [sic]

It was here that Colonel Charles
A. Lindbergh took off for Paris in
the Spirit of St. Louis and this also
was the starting place of the first
Post and Gatty flight and the trans-
atlantic [sic] flights of Clarence Cham-
berlin, Admiral Richard Byrd,
Brock and Schlee and many others.
Here, too, many endurance and
speed-flying records were made.

Because Hangar F has housed so
many famous planes, it was se-
lected for the "aviation shrine" by
the flying Legionnaires, headed by
Col. Kerwood, formery of the La-
fayette Escadrille.

The post is seeking to assemble
history-making planes, instruments
and other equipment to illustrate
the achievements of American
plane designers, builders and fliers.
Roosevelt Field not has a small
museum, and it is hoped that ar-
rangements can be made even-
tually to transfer to Hangar F the
20 old planes on display there.

The sponsors plan to make the
projected museum such as [sic] educa-
tional center as to attract visits of
groups of college students from all
parts of the country, and Col. Ker-
wood also envisages the museum
as the scene of an annual reunion
of noted fliers.

The transformation of the
hangar into a museum is already in
progress from a pictorial stand-
point. Mrs. Aline Rhonie Brooks,
aviatrix and artist, is painting a
series of frescoes. These will show
more than 500 individual portraits
of famous aviators from the time
of the Wright brothers, more than
100 different types of planes, be-
ginning with the "pushers of the
Lincoln Beechy era, and such in-
cidents as the first flight with
United States mail.

Some of the members of the post
are Clyde Pangborn, Frank Hawks,
Col. J. Carroll Cone, assistant direc-
tor of the Bureau of Air Com-
merce; Col. Temple Joyce, Roger
Q. Williams, Capt. James G. Haiz-
lip, James Warner Bellah, Ray
Brown, Capt. Henry J. White and
Capt. Fred Becker.

(Source: “National Museum of Aviation Planned at Roosevelt Field,” Brooklyn Times Union, December 28, 1936, 3.)

So, in an alternate timeline, maybe NASM would have ended up in New York City!

So far, the latest direct mention I found of the museum itself is from 1942 article. The idea for some sort of museum pops up again in a few articles from the 1950s (1, 2, 3), but by that point the situation has changed and there is no mention of the aircraft. Instead, what was left of the aviation history movement at the field had coalesced around a plan to preserve the remaining historic buildings as part of an aviation museum. The effort would eventually lead to the founding of the Cradle of Aviation Museum. (As an aside, the term "cradle of aviation", in quotation marks, appears as early as the 1953 article.)

What I was looking for, and couldn't immediately find, was what caused the airplanes to be dispersed. While the airport closed in 1951, it's clear that the desire to have a aviation museum continued long after that. If so, why were the airplanes let go?

_________________
Tri-State Warbird Museum Collections Manager & Museum Attendant

Warbird Philosophy Webmaster


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], JohnB and 78 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group