11/12/2022 - Texas Raiders and P-63 King Cobra collide

Dave Hadfield · **Joined:** Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:31 pm **Posts:** 1655

Yes, other points: the ATC unit stands back and hands over control of the designated airspace for the event. The AirBoss is the airspace Controller. ATC Center and Arrival/Departure only control outside the show airspace. Tower stands back too, but feeds info to the Airboss when they feel it is helpful, such as "Montreal Center advises the A-380 is :10 mins back". The title AirBoss means exactly that. No one else intervenes ever.

Transponder handling varies from airshow to airshow. Generally, in a team, only Lead squawks. The rest of the formations selects Standby. Personally, I don't know all that much about ADSB, but I suspect that in STBY no info is transmitted or received. In some show routines the aircraft in the formation will also have a solo role. In that case they will have a separate Xpndr code, and may be asked to switch to ALT or STBY depending if they are solo or in the formation. No hard-and-fast rule.

To be clear, there is no ADSB selector switch in an aircraft. It's incorporated into the normal transponder selections: Off, Ground, Standby, On, and Alt. Alt means Altitude: Send, and Receive if so equipped. Most warbirds do not have an ADSB receive display. They send info "Out" but have no ability to display info "In". And in an airshow this is not a problem because your eyeballs have to be outside, not looking at the panel -- you'd hit the ground otherwise.

Good questions.

Dave

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7557

Great explanation and knowledge Dave. Appreciated and unfortunate at the same time.
And to think I still get white knuckles when I enter the pattern.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:59 pm

Mark Allen M wrote:

And to think I still get white knuckles when I enter the pattern.

You aren't alone.

There are a lot of folks in GA getting quite sanctimonious about this incident, but the truth is, for all the fingers being pointed in this accident, all of us pilots that are human are fully capable of making mistakes that could be just as deadly, for that matter, all those driving cars could potentially be in a 2 car pileup with six dead, too. It's really important to not hold double standards.

I think it's fair to say that none of us wants to ever see this happen again, but we all have to face the reality that it doesn't take much for us to have an "oops" moment.

Len Root's celebration of life this afternoon was amazing. He seemed like quite a guy outside of the airshow circuit as well. Best to be living a meaningful, purposeful life since we all don't know when it will be our time to meet our Maker. Sounds like he did that, and that's a comfort.

lmritger · **Posted:** Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:54 pm

David, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to thoroughly and professionally "lift the curtain", so to speak, on airshow planning and execution.

I think it's a measure of the respect we all feel for those involved in this tragedy that this particular thread has been so well-mannered, and I have found it to be a source of not just excellent information, but even a small sense of comfort in knowing we all share a sense of unimaginable grief over what happened.

Respectfully,

Lynn

Dave Hadfield · **Joined:** Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:31 pm **Posts:** 1655

My pleasure, Lynn. Information always beats speculation -- although human nature tends to drive us all towards the latter.

I've expanded my remarks on this thread into a more complete article, posted yesterday on my website. I'm having it reviewed at the moment by 3 AirBosses, so it might get some editing yet.

http://hadfield.ca/how-airshows-are-run/

Dave

Bradburger · **Posted:** Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:59 pm

The audio of the Air Boss/Display communications has been released.

Blancolirio has uploaded a video with his analysis of them, with a link to the full audio: -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFgbDIM8M5s

Unfortunately, it all begs the question why no one involved queried the actions of the Air Boss, and why the sequence appears to have been made up on the fly?

Cheers

Paul

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:24 am

Bradburger wrote:

Unfortunately, it all begs the question why no one involved queried the actions of the Air Boss, and why the sequence appears to have been made up on the fly?

It is too early to make the statement that nobody queried the actions.

The YouTubers making videos (and who also weren't there in the briefing) don't know that. The NTSB hasn't released any evidence on that yet.

The recording the Dan Gryder claimed to have listened to allegedly doesn't contain anyone interrupting the briefing or asking any questions when that part is briefed. That doesn't mean that after the briefing there were no off-line discussions about the plan that took place. That doesn't preclude additional flight-specific discussions taking place between the fighter and bomber pilots about their own internal plans.

I have been part of numerous airshows in which the real nitty-gritty of planning and deconflicting happens internally between the warbird pilots after the airboss briefing, and then they go back-brief the airboss on what they want to do.

Without all of the NTSB's evidence out there, especially the statements made by the other pilots participating in the warbird parade, it is impossible to know at this time.

aerovin · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:41 am

After hearing the recording: if the lead airplane in a flight of three reports ‘traffic in sight,’ what assurance is there that all three pilots have the traffic in sight? I understand that this works in a tight formation but if the flight is strung out over a mile or more, is it really a flight of three?

Xray · **Joined:** Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:25 am **Posts:** 485

Is it really relevant if anyone queried before the show started, when Airboss appears to have heavily improvised once the planes were in the air ?

His calls resulted in conflicted airspace ,, I agree that its too early to definitively say that there were no other factors involved, but its not looking good for him.

p51buff · **Joined:** Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:01 am **Posts:** 24

Juan Brown doesn't allow dissenting posts on his "LOOKATME!!!!!" youtube channel, so I'll post this here:

-Juan Brown is not a member of ICAS, an airshow pilot, or an Air Boss.
-He was not at the briefing, or at the show.
-Not all the information has been released.
-There are many inaccuracies in this video, and the previous 2.

-People involved are fairly disgusted with him and his uninformed videos speculating about this mishap, and wish he would just STFU.

Xray · **Joined:** Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:25 am **Posts:** 485

If there are inaccuracies, why not point them out, if in fact he won't allow discussion on his channel ?

Seems to me there is a fair amount of discussion there, with many pilots/ATC.

p51buff · **Joined:** Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:01 am **Posts:** 24

Xray wrote:

If there are inaccuracies, why not point them out, if in fact he won't allow discussion on his channel ?

Seems to me there is a fair amount of discussion there, with many pilots/ATC.

How can I say this delicately?

Anyone who really knows what happened is part of the NTSB investigation and possible upcoming lawsuits, is not posting on the internet, and won't be talking unless under oath or with counsel present. Anyone who is claiming they know what happened doesn't, and is just speculating.

There is some excellent information in this thread by some very distinguished pilots, notice that they are choosing their words very carefully, and the gist of their posts comes down to "Wait for the investigation, until then we don't really know what happened." I have a feeling that, like me, they know quite a bit more than what they are willing to post and :respect: to them if so.

Sorry, but I won't say more.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:31 am

Xray wrote:

If there are inaccuracies, why not point them out, if in fact he won't allow discussion on his channel ?

Seems to me there is a fair amount of discussion there, with many pilots/ATC.

A few of us *have* done so in the comments section, but the ratio of ignorant to knowledgable is very bad, and it is very apparent that some disaffected individuals / miscreants are milking this for all it's worth to damage the CAF.

I would also suggest that the vast, vast majority of the comments are NOT worth your time.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:35 am

aerovin wrote:

After hearing the recording: if the lead airplane in a flight of three reports ‘traffic in sight,’ what assurance is there that all three pilots have the traffic in sight? I understand that this works in a tight formation but if the flight is strung out over a mile or more, is it really a flight of three?

"In trail" is still a formation, and they had just been instructed to switch to trail, which is fairly standard at the WOD show for switching to photo passes.

Erik Johnson and I were both out in the field in 2021 and he put together a very nice video that you can see here, for what was a pretty standard show for Dallas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blNBkDXZSvA&t=1812s

This video also happens to debunk a bunch of the absolute baloney in those ridiculous comments sections on the YouTube prima donnas. I won't go into details, but those that pay attention and observe, will find what they seek.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:35 am

Double tap. Sorry.

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11/12/2022 - Texas Raiders and P-63 King Cobra collide

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