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 Post subject: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:10 pm 
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Would anyone have information on a Bf-109G, Werk# 13108, fuselage code SG+AH? Or where I might look?

Thank you


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:07 pm 
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Look - it's the 109 Signal! Quickly, to the 109 Cave!

13108 was a WNF-built Bf 109F-4, flown by Ritterkreuz holder and 117-victory ace Lt. Jakob Norz of 8./JG 5; according to the loss record I have for it, he made a forced landing "somewhere" in Finland following combat with Sturmoviks on 5 March 1943. The Stammkennzeichen is new to me... it wasn't listed in the Gen.Qu.6 Abt. reports, nor in Valtonen's book, apparently. Do you have other info on it that confirms SG+AH as the Stkz?

This photo shows Norz with a Bf 109G-2 or G-4, definitely not WNr 13108 (the typical Gustav spine-mounted fuel fill point is just visible behind his head)

Image

Cheers,

Lynn
(Author, Modellers Datafiles 9 and 10 on the Bf 109A-E and F-K and a forthcoming all-encompassing history of the 109)


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:44 pm 
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Lynn it’s almost obscene how much Luftwaffe history you’ve got stuff to the brim in the head of yours. Lol


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:20 pm 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
Lynn it’s almost obscene how much Luftwaffe history you’ve got stuff to the brim in the head of yours. Lol


My dude, things have gotten rather out of hand since I signed a contract back in June to produce what I hope will be the single most comprehensive look at the 109 ever published- covering everything from 1935 to 1965, including Avias and Hispanos, and drawing from literally thousands of original documents.

There's just so much to go through... like this little tiny nugget unearthed in a random Bundesarchiv file, dated 19 Jan 45.

Attachment:
TechAmt KTB 19 Jan 45 - 109 landing gear forging supply issues.jpg
TechAmt KTB 19 Jan 45 - 109 landing gear forging supply issues.jpg [ 151.31 KiB | Viewed 1722 times ]


A bombing attack on Russelsheim hit a gas supply plant. No surprise there, big whoop, right? Well, that plant supplied gas to an Opel factory which was one of the subcontractors responsible for casting the landing gear mounts for 109s. You can build all the wings and fuselages you want, but if you don't have landing gear, they're not going anywhere.

Also, by January 1945, thanks to Allied bombing efforts, the level of dispersal among subcontractors throughout the Reich and occupied territories was positively eye-watering. Have a look at this chart from the US Strategic Bombing Survey on Erla Maschinenwerk, one of the three "prime contractors" responsible for 109 production during the war:

Attachment:
Erla subcontractors 1945 USSBS chart SM.jpg
Erla subcontractors 1945 USSBS chart SM.jpg [ 197.9 KiB | Viewed 1722 times ]


So, thanks to one bomb hitting one gas plant in Russelsheim, none of that dispersal and production effort is going to net the Luftwaffe any new 109s because... you can't fly with no landing gear.

Anyways, that's the level of detail the book will have. Like I said, it's getting out of hand, LOL.

Cheers,

Lynn


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:05 pm 
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SOLID GOLD!!! So fortunate to have guys like you Lynn who make the time and effort and have the passion to document and preserve this level of history. Can’t state enough just how important and valuable your work is. There’s a rare few of you who spend a great deal of their lives researching and presenting their works.

Bravo my friend!!! and much success to you Lynn. WIX is lucky to have you here as a member.

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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:50 am 
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Lynn, that's great that you are working on the definitive 109 book. Luftwaffe aircraft interest me, especially the 109 and 190.

Do you have an estimate on when the book might be available to the public? Count me in to buy a copy whenever it is ready!

There doesn't seem to be a definitive book on the 109, but which one comes closest to holding that title, in your opinion?

FWIW, I love the amount of detail they go into in "Messr. Bf109 Recognition Manual" by Fernandez-Sommerau, except it is way, way too scant! If you could provide that amount of detail, but a lot more of it, with perhaps pictures or drawings, a la, Squadron/Signal Publications detail from the 70's/80's, then I think you would have a winner!

In an ideal world, I would love to see a book that has every single variant of the 109 documented, with differences highlighted between the sub-variants. For example, I want to know all of the differences between a G-6 and a G-10, with pictures/illustrations of those differences. All of this, along with production numbers and timelines of those variants and where they were each manufactured, the units that used them, and any current survivors.

And while we're add it, let's throw in the amount of detail and illustrations that are prevalent in the "Mechanical Guide" Model Art series from Japan for good measure!

Is this too much to ask for, ha ha! :drink3:


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:07 am 
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Outstanding! Count me for a copy!


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:14 am 
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OD/NG wrote:
Lynn, that's great that you are working on the definitive 109 book. Luftwaffe aircraft interest me, especially the 109 and 190.

Do you have an estimate on when the book might be available to the public? Count me in to buy a copy whenever it is ready!

There doesn't seem to be a definitive book on the 109, but which one comes closest to holding that title, in your opinion?

FWIW, I love the amount of detail they go into in "Messr. Bf109 Recognition Manual" by Fernandez-Sommerau, except it is way, way too scant! If you could provide that amount of detail, but a lot more of it, with perhaps pictures or drawings, a la, Squadron/Signal Publications detail from the 70's/80's, then I think you would have a winner!

In an ideal world, I would love to see a book that has every single variant of the 109 documented, with differences highlighted between the sub-variants. For example, I want to know all of the differences between a G-6 and a G-10, with pictures/illustrations of those differences. All of this, along with production numbers and timelines of those variants and where they were each manufactured, the units that used them, and any current survivors.

And while we're add it, let's throw in the amount of detail and illustrations that are prevalent in the "Mechanical Guide" Model Art series from Japan for good measure!

Is this too much to ask for, ha ha! :drink3:


Image


Let me explain... no, there is too much. Let me sum up. </princessbride>

- Every variant will be documented, from the V1 through the Hispano Ha 1112 M1Ls... yes, the Avia S-99/S-199s will be covered as well.

- Detail will be provided on every conceivable bit of armament and equipment fitted to or carried by 109s throughout their service... cameras, gunsights, radar, bombs, fuel tanks, rockets, machine guns, cannons, seats, control sticks, radios, the whole enchilada, all backed by factory drawings/documentation and photos.

- Every engine type ever fitted to the airframe will be documented. Fun fact: I'm still cross-checking this, but I believe the 109 might hold the record for the number of different engines fitted to the same basic airframe. No one ever talks about this, but here's the list:
RR Kestrel
RR Merlin
DB 601
DB 605
DB 628
Junkers Jumo 210
Junkers Jumo 211
Hispano Suiza 12Z-17
Hispano Suiza 12Z-89
BMW 801 (!)
Pratt and Whitney Twin Wasp (!!!!)
(The last two did require a fuselage redesign, so they're sort of mulligans... but they still rated as 109s)

- Production breakdowns will be provided for every variant - factories, WNrs, build totals by factory, production dates, etc. Fun fact: did you know Focke Wulf built a whole bunch of 109s? True story. Also, I think I've reached a point where I can make a definitive statement on the actual number of 109s built between 1935 and 1945, all based on contemporary reports from the RLM as well as interviews conducted as part of the US Strategic Bombing Survey (I have copies of all the reports for Messerschmitt, Erla, and WNF, along with other interesting reports for subcontractors)

- Speaking of production - there will be attention paid to the workforce responsible for building 109s, particularly the use of Ostarbeiter/Zwangsarbeiter in concentration camps such as Gusen and Flossenbürg.

- Production issues will also be discussed - it's amazing what one can learn by going through the notes of meetings held by Milch, Göring, Udet, etc.

- Repair facilities will be discussed - I've been able to identify a number of them.

- Every non-German operational use will be documented, along with identified airframes.

- Aircraft sent to other countries for evaluation (ON PURPOSE, not through capture) will be documented

- This is a biggie... I'm trying to document every single Luftwaffe unit (Staffel or larger) which used the type from 1936 to 1945, along with providing a summary of the type's service in each of those units. NOTE: There will NOT be combat narratives - there are thousands of other extraordinarily well done books where you can find that info. My aim is just to show who used them, and how many they had at different points in the war through the Bewegungstand reports (where available). (This is taking a while, as you might guess)

- Camouflage and markings will be discussed, including factory-specific variances... this will focus on FACTORY STANDARD markings, not individual markings applied at the unit level. Again, those are well covered elsewhere already.

- And lastly, the book will close with a look at the human element... the men and women who built, serviced, and flew the 109 in all it's guises during it's thirty years of active service.

Here's what will *not* be in there:

- Extensive combat narratives
- A survivors list (this is controversial, I admit, but the publisher argued it would "date" the book, and they have a point... we're constantly learning of new recoveries so the list would only be as current as the date of publication)
- Tons of color profiles (there may be some, still mulling that over with the publisher)
- Scale airframe drawings (the only drawings in the book will be those which originated from the factory manuals)

So, there ya go. That's what's in progress right now. And while my goal is to make it as thorough as humanly possible, I can tell you RIGHT NOW that it will not be "the last word" on the type - there's so much info out there which we're only now starting to pore through, 78 years after the end of the war. Genuinely groundbreaking info is scattered pell-mell through archives in the US, UK, Germany, and Russia. I've spent the past six months going through thousands of pages of archival records from the IWM, NARA, NASM, and the Bundesarchiv to ferret out nuggets of useful info, to help build as complete a picture as I can... but there's only so much I can do. Others will come along afterwards and build on that data, I'm certain of it - and that's ok. History isn't a destination, it's a journey. And I will fully acknowledge that my work is built upon the efforts of authors such as Jochen Prien, Peter Rodeike, Willy Radinger/Walter Schick, John Beaman, Peter Schmoll, Erik Mombeek, Robert Forsyth, Karl Ries, Jean-Yves Lorant, Charles Bavaroise, and on and on... and that's not including research work by folks like Vincent Kermorgant, Nigel Moore, Olivier Lefebvre, Marc-Andre Haldimann, Franck Benoiton, Jorg Meinecke, Radu Brinzan, and so many others whose observations have proven so helpful in building out the story of this remarkable aircraft.

The title will be "The Messerschmitt Bf 109 - Design, Deployment, and Derivatives, 1935 - 1965" (My wife says it sounds like a thesis title). The goal is to have the manuscript to the publisher by this September, hopefully with availability by Christmas... we'll see how that goes.

Oh, and you asked about the best current references? The two "must have" books, so far as I'm concerned, are "Messerschmitt Bf 109A-E" by Willy Radinger/Walter Schick, and "Messerschmitt Bf 109F-G-K Series" by Jochen Prien and Peter Rodeike. I will ALWAYS recommend them, even once my own is published - they're fantastic sources of information, well researched and clearly presented.

Whew, that was a lot! At least now y'all can see what I've been up to for the last six months. I'll keep WIX updated on progress as it goes - I'm heartened to hear that folks are already interested. I'll do my best to make the work live up to your expectations. :)

Cheers,

Lynn


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:29 am 
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The "- Tons of color profiles" should not be included if that increases the retail cost of the book by 20%. This book should be available to the masses, not just those who are monied enough to own airplanes.

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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:43 am 
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old iron wrote:
The "- Tons of color profiles" should not be included if that increases the retail cost of the book by 20%. This book should be available to the masses, not just those who are monied enough to own airplanes.


That's a solid point, honestly - and those that know me, know if there's one thing I am extraordinarily passionate about, it's making historical information "accessible", i.e. sharing stories in a way that people can understand and relate to. And a super-high cover price would indeed be an obstacle to that. While the publisher is going to set the price, not me, my hope is that the price will not be stratospheric. However... it's gonna be a BIG book, probably in the vicinity of 400-450 pages. So I guess we'll see.

Cheers,

Lynn


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:42 am 
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old iron wrote:
This book should be available to the masses, not just those who are monied enough to own airplanes.
What the heck does that mean? My first airplane was a worn out 1946 Luscombe 8A I bought using a signature loan (like a credit card, same rates) from my local bank. I think I was 23 years old and renting a room in a friend's house. Far from wealthy...


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:57 am 
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bdk wrote:
old iron wrote:
This book should be available to the masses, not just those who are monied enough to own airplanes.
What the heck does that mean? My first airplane was a worn out 1946 Luscombe 8A I bought using a signature loan (like a credit card, same rates) from my local bank. I think I was 23 years old and renting a room in a friend's house. Far from wealthy...


There are quite a few reference works that cost an arm and a d@mn leg, unfortunately - some of which I really wish I could afford. I presume that's what he's referring to.

Side note, I wouldn't mind having a 1946 Luscombe 8A myself... those are handsome airplanes!

Cheers,

Lynn


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:01 pm 
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double post


Last edited by OD/NG on Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:02 pm 
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lmritger wrote:
OD/NG wrote:
Lynn, that's great that you are working on the definitive 109 book. Luftwaffe aircraft interest me, especially the 109 and 190.

Do you have an estimate on when the book might be available to the public? Count me in to buy a copy whenever it is ready!

There doesn't seem to be a definitive book on the 109, but which one comes closest to holding that title, in your opinion?

FWIW, I love the amount of detail they go into in "Messr. Bf109 Recognition Manual" by Fernandez-Sommerau, except it is way, way too scant! If you could provide that amount of detail, but a lot more of it, with perhaps pictures or drawings, a la, Squadron/Signal Publications detail from the 70's/80's, then I think you would have a winner!

In an ideal world, I would love to see a book that has every single variant of the 109 documented, with differences highlighted between the sub-variants. For example, I want to know all of the differences between a G-6 and a G-10, with pictures/illustrations of those differences. All of this, along with production numbers and timelines of those variants and where they were each manufactured, the units that used them, and any current survivors.

And while we're add it, let's throw in the amount of detail and illustrations that are prevalent in the "Mechanical Guide" Model Art series from Japan for good measure!

Is this too much to ask for, ha ha! :drink3:

Let me explain... no, there is too much. Let me sum up. </princessbride>

- Every variant will be documented, from the V1 through the Hispano Ha 1112 M1Ls... yes, the Avia S-99/S-199s will be covered as well.

- Detail will be provided on every conceivable bit of armament and equipment fitted to or carried by 109s throughout their service... cameras, gunsights, radar, bombs, fuel tanks, rockets, machine guns, cannons, seats, control sticks, radios, the whole enchilada, all backed by factory drawings/documentation and photos.

- Every engine type ever fitted to the airframe will be documented. Fun fact: I'm still cross-checking this, but I believe the 109 might hold the record for the number of different engines fitted to the same basic airframe. No one ever talks about this, but here's the list:
RR Kestrel
RR Merlin
DB 601
DB 605
DB 628
Junkers Jumo 210
Junkers Jumo 211
Hispano Suiza 12Z-17
Hispano Suiza 12Z-89
BMW 801 (!)
Pratt and Whitney Twin Wasp (!!!!)
(The last two did require a fuselage redesign, so they're sort of mulligans... but they still rated as 109s)

- Production breakdowns will be provided for every variant - factories, WNrs, build totals by factory, production dates, etc. Fun fact: did you know Focke Wulf built a whole bunch of 109s? True story. Also, I think I've reached a point where I can make a definitive statement on the actual number of 109s built between 1935 and 1945, all based on contemporary reports from the RLM as well as interviews conducted as part of the US Strategic Bombing Survey (I have copies of all the reports for Messerschmitt, Erla, and WNF, along with other interesting reports for subcontractors)

- Speaking of production - there will be attention paid to the workforce responsible for building 109s, particularly the use of Ostarbeiter/Zwangsarbeiter in concentration camps such as Gusen and Flossenbürg.

- Production issues will also be discussed - it's amazing what one can learn by going through the notes of meetings held by Milch, Göring, Udet, etc.

- Repair facilities will be discussed - I've been able to identify a number of them.

- Every non-German operational use will be documented, along with identified airframes.

- Aircraft sent to other countries for evaluation (ON PURPOSE, not through capture) will be documented

- This is a biggie... I'm trying to document every single Luftwaffe unit (Staffel or larger) which used the type from 1936 to 1945, along with providing a summary of the type's service in each of those units. NOTE: There will NOT be combat narratives - there are thousands of other extraordinarily well done books where you can find that info. My aim is just to show who used them, and how many they had at different points in the war through the Bewegungstand reports (where available). (This is taking a while, as you might guess)

- Camouflage and markings will be discussed, including factory-specific variances... this will focus on FACTORY STANDARD markings, not individual markings applied at the unit level. Again, those are well covered elsewhere already.

- And lastly, the book will close with a look at the human element... the men and women who built, serviced, and flew the 109 in all it's guises during it's thirty years of active service.

Here's what will *not* be in there:

- Extensive combat narratives
- A survivors list (this is controversial, I admit, but the publisher argued it would "date" the book, and they have a point... we're constantly learning of new recoveries so the list would only be as current as the date of publication)
- Tons of color profiles (there may be some, still mulling that over with the publisher)
- Scale airframe drawings (the only drawings in the book will be those which originated from the factory manuals)


So, there ya go. That's what's in progress right now. And while my goal is to make it as thorough as humanly possible, I can tell you RIGHT NOW that it will not be "the last word" on the type - there's so much info out there which we're only now starting to pore through, 78 years after the end of the war. Genuinely groundbreaking info is scattered pell-mell through archives in the US, UK, Germany, and Russia. I've spent the past six months going through thousands of pages of archival records from the IWM, NARA, NASM, and the Bundesarchiv to ferret out nuggets of useful info, to help build as complete a picture as I can... but there's only so much I can do. Others will come along afterwards and build on that data, I'm certain of it - and that's ok. History isn't a destination, it's a journey. And I will fully acknowledge that my work is built upon the efforts of authors such as Jochen Prien, Peter Rodeike, Willy Radinger/Walter Schick, John Beaman, Peter Schmoll, Erik Mombeek, Robert Forsyth, Karl Ries, Jean-Yves Lorant, Charles Bavaroise, and on and on... and that's not including research work by folks like Vincent Kermorgant, Nigel Moore, Olivier Lefebvre, Marc-Andre Haldimann, Franck Benoiton, Jorg Meinecke, Radu Brinzan, and so many others whose observations have proven so helpful in building out the story of this remarkable aircraft.

The title will be "The Messerschmitt Bf 109 - Design, Deployment, and Derivatives, 1935 - 1965" (My wife says it sounds like a thesis title). The goal is to have the manuscript to the publisher by this September, hopefully with availability by Christmas... we'll see how that goes.

Oh, and you asked about the best current references? The two "must have" books, so far as I'm concerned, are "Messerschmitt Bf 109A-E" by Willy Radinger/Walter Schick, and "Messerschmitt Bf 109F-G-K Series" by Jochen Prien and Peter Rodeike. I will ALWAYS recommend them, even once my own is published - they're fantastic sources of information, well researched and clearly presented.

Whew, that was a lot! At least now y'all can see what I've been up to for the last six months. I'll keep WIX updated on progress as it goes - I'm heartened to hear that folks are already interested. I'll do my best to make the work live up to your expectations. :)

Cheers,

Lynn

I totally agree with what I bolded in red. There are extensive combat histories/unit histories of the type in other sources and that, in my opinion, would make the book way too long, extensive and onerous for you to research. I like the philosophy of concentrating on the airframe itself and covering other things that relate to the production and the hardware, with history interspersed as needed to illustrate that point. It sounds like that is what you are doing.

Thanks for the recommendation on the two 109 books. I didn't have either one and just ordered them.

Let us know your progress on this book here at WIX and especially when it is available. I would like to purchase it when it becomes available. Thanks for your dedication to historical research to set the record straight on this important Axis fighter. Now......if you could only do the same for the 190.....lol! :) :drink3:


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 Post subject: Re: Bf-109G
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:12 pm 
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A companion book to Spitfire The History by Edward Shacklady, Eric B. Morgan would look on my bookcase..

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