Warbird Information Exchange

Hi with all the discussion on whats original or whats a replica/museum standards/to replace or not replace/air worthy or static,my question for the readers is would you pay to see a museum that displays their a/c as recovered vs.restored?A few come to mind#1the Alaska Aviation Museum in Anchorage.They have a very interesting collection of historic a/c,most are displayed as recovered and are in poor condition,the douglas world cruiser,a p-40,spartain exec,pby,ford tri-motor,s-38,ect there is allot of history here!!they would love to restore them all but financially not possible.#2 Walter Saplata(spelling?)collection a large collection of very historic a/c most very deralect and in need of restoration.Here is an interesting fellow that has invested his whole live preserving what many would have scrapped years ago!!Now that the interest and value of the a/c is up the same people that thought he was insane now treat him as some form of warbird god,now trying to suck up hoping to shake something loose.Walter has done his best to hang onto, display, and preserve his treasures i wish him well!!#3Earl and Ray Rienhart(again spelling?)although now gone this was another case of lots of rare a/c that were rescued from the junk man!They were 2 real interesting guys that spent a large part of their lifes and money collecting what they could get.The flyable p-47s are here thanks to Earls foresight in saving the parts he collected!!Several of his a/cs are now restored to mint condition they would have all been scrapped if not for their efforts!!!But again were displayed as recovered.#4 Ed Maloneys planes of fame.Well many may disagree on this one but not all that long ago many of these rare birds were in the same boat!!Ed is another guy that when all this was still so much junk he saved and sacraficed the good life to instead spend his hard earned money saving many many a/c from the cutters torch!!they were moved several times,vandalised,parts stolen ect,but he hung on to them.I remember many articals on these collections that in the past were blasted by the visitors as junk yards,trash collections,a black eye of a/c preservation,ect!the reality is with out the efforts of the early pioneers so many historic a/c would have been gone forever!!So back to my original point is how many would go way out of your way to see a collection of unrestored a/c vs. say the Air Force/Navy/NASM,ect?If you read this post please put your thoughts in on this as it could be a helpful tool in the upcoming meeting in Pensacola thanks Mike

I rather see them restored.

I think if an airframe is derelict, or is missing substantial parts [ like half a fuselage ] , or is likely to disintergrate if left 'as is' , it should be restored.
On the other hand if the machine has been stored and is in sound condition, give it a clean and display it 'as is' . An aircraft that springs to mind straight away is the P-38 on display at Dulles.... simply fascinating. Others presently on display like the Australian War Memorial 262 with its British and German markings and the 109G in original markings, the IWM Spit, the Finnish P-39 are all head and shoulders above the surrounding exhibits of shiny restored aircraft.
There are a few others pulled from Russian lakes I would like to see left' as is'. These would need to be dismantled and 'conserved', and then put back together ...the Finnish Buffalo and the Jim Pearce 109E. They have a substantial amount of camo and markings still extant and are time capsules.


Dave

The only problem I see with displaying “as is” has to do with any unsuspecting corrosion creeping around in all of the nooks & crannies of the airframe. I remember thinking that the F2G Super Corsair Mr. Soplata preserved over the years would look great simply cleaned up and displayed in “cocooned” fashion, wearing the remnants of its original racing paint scheme. Then came the teardown with restorer Bob Odeggard where he found some fairly substantial corrosion deep in the fuselage center section. As a result, the plane was accordingly stripped and the corrosion properly contained. Preserving airplanes is a bit like trying to preserve an eggshell. If we expect these fragile old relics to remain in soundly preserved condition, substantial restoration is a necessity in many cases.

On the other hand, the partial Bf-109 preserved at the Imperial War Museum makes for an excellent display IMO. Certain planes like that one can get away with being preserved “as is”. Many others are more difficult to look at in derelict condition. Part of me really enjoys the Japanese “Betty” bomber display at the Planes of Fame Museum at Chino, CA. That said, I honestly think better justice could be offered the plane by restoring it as best as possible to exacting original standards. There should be at least a couple of complete examples of every type of surviving warbird if at all possible.

The P-38 at Dulles, the original P-39 still in original paint in Norway (I believe), and the XF4U-4 at New England Air Museum are excellent examples of what should be done with aircraft that still exist in untouched original condition. Those are bona fide time capsules and should be regarded as such.

I think it takes a little bit of both types to make things interesting. Doug Champlin’s Fw-190D-13 comes to mind as what “restored to original condition” should be. Most if not all of the parts are original (including the original wing acquired from the USAF Museum), but all have been properly refinished and preserved. Having been exactly finished right down to its authentic paint scheme is just the degree of perfection that should be reached for with the “restored original” warbirds.

There are so many variables when it comes to the condition, completeness, history of modifications, etc for every individual surviving airframe out there. There’s just no way to work with the mixed pot of variables available to the particular museum/owner/restorer, and squeeze the resulting aircraft into one of three or four convenient categories.

I said it during the original debate a couple of years ago, but it bears repeating. Each individual aircraft should be sized up by its individual merits. For the planes that fit simply into the category of “all original” or “replica”, that’s great! That said, I think the diversity of the remaining mix-match of surviving warbirds should be celebrated for what each plane has to offer. It definitely makes for more interesting hangar stories! I never understood why people choose to get frustrated when they aren’t able to immediately place a certain airplane onto one of three or four convenient categories. The extreme majority of people who restore warbirds keep a restoration log and a photo record of the work they do. In most cases something exists that shows exactly what condition these planes were in when they were obtained, and what has been done to then hence.

Next time you see a particular plane and wonder whether it should remain unrestored or otherwise, just come back to WIX and I’m sure plenty of us will gladly had down a judgement on what deserves to happen to that airplane!

I’ll start the list by stating that the ultra rare RNZAF Corsair now on the market should be dignified with a restoration that sets or matches the standard for factory original perfection. Any “field mods” discovered on the plane that were put in place during its military career should be properly preserved in place to maintain the spirit of the “fighting pilot’s machine”.

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Rob Mears
'Surviving Corsairs' Historian
robcmears@yahoo.com
http://www.robmears.com

I'm all for restorations on anything restorable or not, BUT, as for the question at hand, I WILL GO OUT OF MY WAY for a derilect hulk.

Roger that!

I'm all for restoring an airframe if the parts, personnel and budget are available, but I acquired a taste for wreckage after a few tours of Czech Air Force holdings in various depots around the countryside.

Would that there had been interest enough there to sort and display some of what they had!

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It's still the same old story : The 'Eighth' gets all the glory : And yet someone must die : The odds are always too d@mned high : As flak goes by...

[/quote]
Would that there had been interest enough there to sort and display some of what they had!


Such as ??

Dave[/quote]

On this topic, I think it might be beneficial to show that the military is not doing a very good job preserving some of the aircraft they have now. How about getting a photo journal together showing some of the worst offenders? Then you could make the case that the private sector is much more capable of saving/salvaging these aircraft, especially in these times of "fiscal oversight." Why does the US Navy need to recover more aircraft from Lake Michigan when they already have more aircraft to restore than they could possible fund in 100 years?

I should clarify myself. I don't think any aircraft should be left to deteriorate into nothing! Especially if an organization or an individual has the option of getting it restored/perserved. If a museum has funding difficulties and ESPECIALLY has other aircraft that could be sold, swapped, long-term/permenant loan or (BITE MY TONGUE! ) DONATED to another organization or individual that has the potential to restore said aircraft, I think that they have an obligation to do so. Especially museums and organizations like the VFW, American Leigon, and cities and towns that have A/C on display and DO NOT maintain their charges.

I like the idea of aircraft that are either too far gone or are awaiting restoration to be preserved and displayed in a diorama. IIRC Kermit Weeks has a Zero displayed this way and isn't there a Betty displayed in a similar fashion. I also think these dioramas would be a good place to use none airworthy parts from a restoration project instead of scrapping them. Heck you could even make a factory production diorama or a restoration shop diorama. The key here is Maximum Utilization of Available resources.

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Scott Rose
Editor-In-Chief/Webmaster
Warbirds Resource Group - Warbird Information Exchange - Warbird Registry

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Betty is at Planes of Fame in Chino. They also have a Judy (I think) on display in Valle, AZ (Grand Canyon AP). It isn't really in a diorama though, just an airplane shaped wreck sitting on the floor.

Your next mission is to photograph,document,and email me the info on any and all military a/c that you feel are in deralect condition,or are in danger of scrapping that are in your area!!Also needed are photos of any a/c on loan from the navy museum and its current condition,location,and wheather displayed or stored,please inclued as much info as possible.Your help in this matter will help make the case that we need to take to Pensicola.So dust off that new digital camara,fire up the sedan,and go hunting!!!please if you want to help with this long over due mission turn off the t.v.call all your a/c buddys and lets see what kinda response that we can get!Dig through your files if you have photos of any a/c that have been scrapped in the last ten years that should have been saved send them on.Scan and email them to Helldivers@aol.com Thanks!!! Mike