A 'Nazi' artifact vs a 'Nazi' ideology ...

T J Johansen · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:20 am

August,

Eloquently put!

My hat is off to you.

T J

k5083 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:51 am

Thank you for the thoughts, guys. Old Iron, we usually agree, but I think you're off base this time.

old iron wrote:

There is a difference between the two: The swastika on the airplane was an edict of the government; the pilot - who was very likely a not a Nazi - had no say in the matter.

That's true of the original WWII Fw 190, but not at all true of the present day Flug Werke owner. Displaying the swastika is very much his choice.

Quote:

The students said precisely and with no ambiguity “I want to be a Nazi.”

I really don't think so. This does not look to me like a gathering of white supremacists, who really are saying that. The students are just saying, "I want attention, and can get it by offending people."

Quote:

(And they may be labeled as such; any of them who aspire to the Supreme Court, must know that they can be quickly destroyed by a photo from the past)

Funny, I was just going to say that any of these kids would apparently still be welcome on the Supreme Court. Do you live in an alternate reality where a Supreme Court nominee was "destroyed," or even just not confirmed, by evidence coming out that he was a dick in high school? If so, can I come join your reality? 'Cause this one sucks.

August

chainfeed · **Joined:** Mon May 21, 2018 1:44 pm **Posts:** 49

6trn4brn wrote:

I would like to know the rest of the story behind the photo of the children. Are any of them of Jewish descent? Seems awfully brash. Unfortunately, I know several "millenials" and they are as a group pretty worthless.

If you read the books by Adolph Galland and Guenther Rall, neither were members of the Nazi party. Not all of the German people were. Those who were in the military, whether they were a member of the party or not, felt as though they had a duty to defend the fatherland.

The fringe elements of any party are usually the most vocal. Sad as an entire group of people will be judged by the actions and words of a few. By and large, most people today are the same. They just want to go to work, take care of their family and laugh at the foolishness of those who love attention. At least that is how I see it.

defend the fatherland? If thats what they wanted to do how did the end up in France, Poland, Russia, etc..........

Also, while many Germans were not members of the Nazi party, most Germans did support Hitler. Its estimated Hitlers approval rating just before the outbreak of war was 80+ percent. Cripes some of the revisionist out there today make it sound like Hitler and maybe 8 of his friends were Nazi's and the rest of the Germans were just along for the ride......... pfffff

old iron · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:18 am

August,

I was certainly not suggesting that any pilot of a modern (or WWII) aircraft should be seen as a Nazi for having a swastika on their airplane. Even during WWII most German pilots, and soldiers, were themselves victims of an extreme and malevolent government. Displaying the swastika on period equipment is in my opinion appropriate as this continues the discussion about that malevolent government. Such discussion-reminders are needed.

As to the kids making a Nazi salute. I recognize that many of the kids were caught up in and without reflection did something that seemed funny at the moment. But some of the kids obvious refrained from making the salute (and this was a Nazi salute, a "wave" looks entirely different).

That said, the salute is reprehensible and I hope serious repercussions result to the student or photographer who suggested the act. This is beyond racist: this is an act that, perhaps unconsciously for some, supports an extraordinarily murderous regime. We must now collectively use this event to engage in the discussions-reminders of what WWII is all about.

Our young kids do not necessarily appreciate the causes and events of WWII. I say this as a teacher - I know from personal experience that some college-age kids do not know the major combatants on each side. We must use this salute-event as a teaching experience to inform/remind everyone of why we fought and won a world war, and why we were on the "good" side of that conflict.

Kevin

quemerford · **Joined:** Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:19 pm **Posts:** 925

Kids make mistakes - I know I did at that age. They meant nothing more than to cause offence and get attention. They'll learn in their own way, and years later, some will be proud of what they did while others (hopefully most) will have learnt a great deal about how they got here and have a more rounded view of the world and the importance of things. But it takes time to learn that stuff: you can't teach wisdom; only knowledge.

4RG.I.'S · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:45 pm

What we assume from a photo is not always what is the case. From the local news:

The parent who took a photo of a group of Wisconsin high school boys giving what appears to be a Nazi salute on the steps of a local courthouse said Tuesday he was simply asking the teens to wave goodbye to their parents before they headed off to prom and never anticipated the image would draw such widespread condemnation.

https://fox6now.com/2018/11/13/photogra ... offensive/

airnutz · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:45 pm

The "Today Show" had a short piece about the photo this morning, but it wasn't as revealing as Mark's link in his first post. There was no mention of the original Twitter heading posted with the photo, "We even got the black kid to throw it up #barabooproud". And no mention of the adult history teacher/photographer instigator's attempt to back-peddle out by saying he, "had the boys pose that way as if they're waving as they head off to prom". The kid who didn't comply at top right in the photo busted him on that tho...Some really bad judgement...with photos!!! :shock:

Quite different than the historic presentation of an aircraft...

airnutz · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:52 pm

4RG.I.'S wrote:

What we assume from a photo is not always what is the case. From the local news:

The parent who took a photo of a group of Wisconsin high school boys giving what appears to be a Nazi salute on the steps of a local courthouse said Tuesday he was simply asking the teens to wave goodbye to their parents before they headed off to prom and never anticipated the image would draw such widespread condemnation.

https://fox6now.com/2018/11/13/photogra ... offensive/

Wow 4RG.I.'S, we posted at the same moment! Looks like Fox could've benefited from a little more research... :roll:

greatgonzo · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:51 pm

old iron wrote:

The swastika on the airplane was an edict of the government; the pilot - who was very likely a not a Nazi

It is like saying the pilot in P-47 was very likely not supporting democracy. Carefully selected and top trained exclusive specialist in the nazi army was who? Maybe not an active party member, but certainly not a slave forced into the fighter plane cockpit. I am not saying he was born a nazi, but he did support the system. Very likely, that is.

K5DH · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:57 pm

I may be wrong, and I'm always happy to accept correction, but I vaguely recall reading that members of the German military were forbidden to be members of The Party, which was done to maintain some kind of "separation" between the government and the military. If I'm wrong about this, please correct me.

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 6651

From what I have read about this group of boys, is that they are juniors in high school and not seniors. Although even as high school juniors they should at least be aware of the history, significance and sensitivity of of the Nazi salute. I knew it's history and meaning well into grade school. The photo was a bad move and these boys need to be held accountable. I believe since these kids have another year of high school that as a form of punishment, or better yet, as a much needed education, they each should have to complete a detailed report on the history of the Nazi's before and during WWII. If they are punished in some way there's a possible fear that they actually may be affected opposite of what their superiors may have intended. For the most part they didn't hurt anyone and from what I've been seeing on my office TV, they are all over the news in a bad way. Educate yes, punishment no.

p51 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:24 pm

The obvious question of “how could anyone think this is okay?” is answered correctly with a quote in the story itself; they’re teenage boys. People forget when you’re a boy at that age, there are NO taboos: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ed ... 966d786cce

quemerford wrote:

Kids make mistakes - I know I did at that age. They meant nothing more than to cause offence and get attention.

Yep, exactly.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:50 pm

p51 wrote:

The obvious question of “how could anyone think this is okay?” is answered correctly with a quote in the story itself; they’re teenage boys. People forget when you’re a boy at that age, there are NO taboos: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ed ... 966d786cce

quemerford wrote:

Kids make mistakes - I know I did at that age. They meant nothing more than to cause offence and get attention.

Yep, exactly.

Only if they have parents that don't care to raise them right and teach some discipline earlier... not every teenage boy thinks that kind of stuff is ok. That's setting the bar waaaaay too low for our young peoples.

JohnB · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:07 pm

I don't think the boys will make that mistake again.

Remember a few years ago Prince Harry went to a costume party wearing a tan uniform with the swastika arm band.
He was old enough to know better, plus you'd think he'd realize with his visibility that he'd know enough not to do it...

greatgonzo · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:48 pm

K5DH wrote:

I may be wrong, and I'm always happy to accept correction, but I vaguely recall reading that members of the German military were forbidden to be members of The Party, which was done to maintain some kind of "separation" between the government and the military. If I'm wrong about this, please correct me.

I wouldn't know. Ain't change a thing here anyway.

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