Warbird Information Exchange

It is a multi engine plane, and on that type, you are almost never landing on center line, you are to the left or right depending on where you are sitting. A 747 pilot has no problem landing a plane when he is to the left of center and 3 stories up. You get your sight picture before you take off and that is what you look for when you land. Even if he lands with the centerline going down the left fuselage, who cares ? most runways are 100+ feet in width, 8ft to the left or right are not going to matter. As far as rolls, you fly the plane, it is not an issue, otherwise the Air Force would have prohibited acrobatics in the P/F-82s. They are not reinventing the wheel, it has all been done before.

_________________
Matt Gunsch, A&P, IA, Warbird maint and restorations
Jack, You have Debauched my sloth !!!!!!
We tried voting with the Ballot box, When do we start voting from the Ammo box, and am I allowed only one vote ?
Check out the Ercoupe Discussion Group on facebook

aerojock,

I'll just ditto on what Matt stated well and add a little more specific to the P-/F-82.

If you have not yet slaked your thirst for knowledge with the flight operating instructions, then I'd start there. Pages 26 and 27 include details on flight characteristics and prohibited maneuvers.

http://www.avialogs.com/viewer/avialogs ... hp?id=3802

Concerning your question on roll, I quote: "Rolling maneuvers feel quite natural, and there is no perceptible acceleration of the pilot or copilot about the centerline of the airplane during such maneuvers."

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

I was there when the CAF's went down, I Always heard that the Pilot said that "He fell asleep" ( )
What REALLY Got my Goat is that when they towed it back behind the hangers, I witness a Bunch of ******* ******* KNUCKLE HEADS take turns Standing from wing tip to wing tip LAUGHING ( ) taking pic.s as they put their arms around each other AND where Laughing and rocking the Plane by hopping up and down on it !
I KNOW that was a long time ago, people's ideas....Blah Blah Blah.. BUT Still..... Still to this day, I can not excuse it. Thanks EVERY One for letting me Vent, Just my 2 Million pennies.....

_________________
WWI & WWII Warbird Fan.

Dan,

Thanks for the info, good to know. I wished I had a manual to some of these airplanes when I was younger growing up in Harlingen.

TBM Tony,

I was there too when it crashed landed. I heard he flared too high and it stalled. I also heard that the airspeed indicator was in MPH and not KIAS and that was also a factor. Once again all this is second or third hand info but I know some people that were in the office when he walked in afterwards.

I have seen people do some stupid stuff to planes at airshows and even worse cars at car shows, liked they owned it. They probably thought that since it was wrecked they could do what they wanted, since it would be repaired anyway. I guess we should be thankful they weren't stealing stuff from the plane. In my younger days I was guilty of touching some planes but I knew how not to hurt it.

Was is scrapped or restored?

That was the one the USAF repossessed from the CAF. As the courts ruled, the USAF had loaned the CAF the airplane. When the CAF could no longer fly it (after the crash), they ultimately traded it to a third party for other airplane stuff. The USAF swooped in and reclaimed its loan of the aircraft.

There is plenty in the WIX archives on this if you're interested.

Maybe the test pilot(s) should get a few hours in the "Yak-110":



Just a thought.

_________________
Chris

Airshow-itis or hurry-upitis, ultimately appears to be the cause for the crash, not sleep apnia, airspeed indicator issues, or various pilot failings. As told to me by the FAA guy there that week, and who filled out the FAA report. One of these days I'm going to order that report just to have it. Commonly folks dig up the NTSB report, but they came along later and weren't there that day. They had just got her flying, but the -82 had an issue they had been chasing all week with oil supply leakage to the right-side propeller. IIRC, Lefty was overseeing that project and was in the passenger seat when the shunt occurred. This continued right into airshow time, when just before flair on the last landing, the pilot, "Grinny" Messick, lost pitch due oil starvation on the right prop causing a stall to the right or an asymmetric thrust situation. By the photos, the right prop looks as if it has been feathered and the left prop appears in a "normal thrust mode". As I understand it, when the oil is absent to the prop, the blades are free to flop about. The props appear to have had minimal rotation when they struck the ground, as 3 of the left prop blades are bent back "normally" as carrying pitch but little energy with the tip of the 4th blade scuffed and a slight bend back. Remember the landing gear are collapsing somewhere here during the event. The right-side blades, are all bent perpendicular to a feathered appearing state...tho oddly with the tips pointing at each other on a couple pair appearing to have come down as so, (^). There is one photo prior to the crash of her sitting on the ramp with the spinner removed from the right-side with a large oil stain underneath.

When it gets too hot to work outside, I'll try to post a couple of photos.

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

My bad if this video's been posted already at WIX.

Tom Reilly tells a little more of the story:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQP0IHH3FTs

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

Are you saying Lefty was on board when it pranged?

Dan,
Thanks for posting that terrific video.
Tom seems like such an amazing human being.
I've enjoyed every step of this project that he has been kind enough to share. Just fantastic.
I also support his decision to replace the wheels 100%. Very wise move.
I'm really enjoying the anticipation of the first flight. it's hard to describe. This must not be rushed.

I love how Tom talked about Walter and all of the unbelievable coincidences that have come in to place to bring this project to fruition.
It's a masterpiece.
My heartiest congratulations to Mr Reilly and his team.

Andy Scott

Yes Aerojock. Note other splotches of oil in the center where she was parked during an earlier repair attempts.


Track marks where it skewed off to the right after contact..






Apologies if the photo posting doesn't work.

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

Thanks for the pictures, airnutz.

According to the official NTSB report on the CAF F-82 accident, the mishap PIC had a grand total of 2 hours of F-82 time, with a grand total of 10 hours of PIC time in all makes and models of aircraft.

Is this really correct? I have a hard time believing somebody with that serious lack of experience would be allowed to fly an extremely rare, one of a kind aircraft - even in the CAF - when "pay for play" was common there at that time.

If the NTSB report is accurate, was this the reason that Lefty was in the other cockpit - to check him out in the aircraft?

Nobody had more than a few hours in the P-82 at the time, including Lefty and the 10hrs total time is wrong. Even though the airplane was owned by the CAF for many years, it probably flew for less than 40 hours total. All that time was split up among 6 or 8 people that had flown it. It spent much of its time, prior to the crash, being worked on and waiting for money to do it. There were very few sponsors on the airplane and a couple of them moved their money over to other projects when progress was so slow.

Lefty was not in the airplane at the time of the accident. Ed Messick was in the left seat and Harry Tope was in the right one, on his first flight in the airplane but he was just along for the ride. They were doing some film work for the BBC. The airplane had a problem with the right prop regulator leaking. On Friday before the accident, Lefty Gardner and Bill Popejoy were flying and came back with the right prop feathered. On Saturday, the plane came back with the right prop feathered. At that point, it was grounded. The maintenance guys had a meeting with Lefty and after some other work, released the airplane to fly. Ed was given instructions by Herb Puckett to fly for no longer than 30 minutes so they could keep an eye on the prop.

I've got all the CAF's files on the P-82 somewhere. I'll try to dig it all out. I've got the witness statements, investigator reports, insurance paperwork and such, including the letter that Ed Messick sent to the CAF General Staff, promising to pay for the restoration. Yes, Ed did stall the airplane and yes there were two different calibrations on the airspeed indicators. Harry Tope later died in a P-51 crash and Ed Messick murdered his wife and then committed suicide in 2002.

_________________
Brad

You're always entirely welcome, Andy.

So, who here is close enough to Tom Reilly to help him pronounce a good German name like "Edgar Schmued".

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.