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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:16 pm 
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Although the 190 isn't really a 'Nazi artifact'.
When a young person asks why one is ok and another is horrible, what is your answer?

Below- One of the flug werk 190's being admired at an airshow.

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vs.

Below- Wisconsin district investigating photo of class of 2019 students giving Nazi salute before school dance.
Story here: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing ... e-students

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Remember it was the Roman salute too and as for the use of the Swastika which is a geometrical figure that features in many ancient cultures including Buddhist, Hindu, ancient Christian and even American first nations. The Nazis used it as a unifying symbol and now it it vilified and of course in Germany banned.

It's use on historical context of a warbird paint scheme like my friend's FW190 pictured has no bearing on the atrocities of WW2. Why don't people regale at the Japanese 'Rising Sun'? It's still in use by today's Japanese Armed Forces..


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:04 pm 
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Where to even begin?

How about: let's take up a collection to send these lads on a field trip to Auschwitz-Birkenau?

Their parents must be very proud.

-Tom


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:32 pm 
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Sasquatch wrote:
Where to even begin?

How about: let's take up a collection to send these lads on a field trip to Auschwitz-Birkenau?

Their parents must be very proud.

-Tom

+10

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Those twits are not sincerely expressing any affinity with nazi ideology. They are just being provocative dicks.

Two things matter in communication: what the communicator intends, and what the receiver understands. Neither party has full authority over the meaning of the communication, but the communicator is ultimately responsible, which means that any communicator bears the risk of being responsible for meanings it didn't intend.

The airplane owner intends to be historically accurate and the students intend to be dicks. Both the tail marking and the salute may trigger horrific feelings in some receivers. In both cases, the communicators willingly took the risk of offending or shocking some recipients, so that's on them. They can explain what they meant all they want, but "I didn't mean that" is never a complete defense. Saying, "Painting a swastika on my plane has nothing to do with nazi atrocities" is wrong. You don't get the only say in what it has to do with. The most you can say is, "I didn't intend for painting a swastika on my plane to have anything to do with nazi atrocities." People have every right to be offended by it. In fact, the great thing about the American model of free speech, when it is working properly, is that no one has the right NOT to be offended. We can agree that being historically accurate is a better reason for risking offending people than being a dick is. That's the only real difference between the two cases.

August

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:09 am 
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Well said, August; you expressed what I had no words for.

-Tom


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:34 am 
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There’s at least one of those ‘dicks’ who not only can grasp the idea of the nazi salute but also seems to understand and perform the hand signal for White Supremacy. (First row center)
Inconsiderate and immature? yes, Ignorant to not knowing better? No.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:25 am 
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I would like to know the rest of the story behind the photo of the children. Are any of them of Jewish descent? Seems awfully brash. Unfortunately, I know several "millenials" and they are as a group pretty worthless.

If you read the books by Adolph Galland and Guenther Rall, neither were members of the Nazi party. Not all of the German people were. Those who were in the military, whether they were a member of the party or not, felt as though they had a duty to defend the fatherland.

The fringe elements of any party are usually the most vocal. Sad as an entire group of people will be judged by the actions and words of a few. By and large, most people today are the same. They just want to go to work, take care of their family and laugh at the foolishness of those who love attention. At least that is how I see it.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:02 am 
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I still find it strange whenever i read "Nazi airplane" in some newspaper headline. Inanimate objects don't have political affiliations after all.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:17 am 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
There’s at least one of those ‘dicks’ who not only can grasp the idea of the nazi salute but also seems to understand and perform the hand signal for White Supremacy. (First row center)
Inconsiderate and immature? yes, Ignorant to not knowing better? No.


Hello Mark,
As we all know, one thing to a person means something quite different to another. While there are those that say the "OK" hand gesture has some link as you state it, the upside down "OK" signal below the waist is actually intended as a game not a nazi salute:
About
The Circle Game is a game of peripheral vision, trickery and motor skills.[1] The game starts out when the Offensive Player creates a circle with their thumb and forefinger somewhere below his waist.[2] The goal is to trick another person into looking at his hand. If the victim looks at the hand, he has lost the game, and is subsequently hit on the bicep with a closed fist, by the offensive player. Online, people have begun hiding hands making the circle symbols in various images to trick people into finding it.
Origin
According to Vice,[3] the Circle Game was invented by Ohio resident Matt Nelson in the early 1980s. Nelson claims to have devised the game while in elementary school as a a way to punch his friends.

The game was popularized on November 15th, 2000 in the fourth episode of the television sitcom Malcom in the Middle's second season. In the episode, characters play the Circle Game, introducing to the show's millions of viewers.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-circle-game

That being said, IF these kids are actually making a nazi salute (an alternate thought has been stated that they were all asked to waive at the same time for the photo), we don't know what happened or why, only what we see and determine based on what we feel is correct. If it were truly that gesture, I hope it haunts them whenever they go for a job interview or maybe run for office somewhere.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:04 am 
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I hope not. They are still kids and it would be enough if they felt totally ashamed whenever remembered this picture.

James D wrote:
I still find it strange whenever i read "Nazi airplane" in some newspaper headline. Inanimate objects don't have political affiliations after all.


And You are right. FW-190 was certainly not nazi aircraft. It was German. I understand the idea behind 6trn4brn (Jeeze, I hope its not Your real name ;) ) post. Still the idea of good Germans and bad nazis reminds me of the socialism times: good Germans were those living in the DDR, exnazis lived in BRD. When holocaust started in 1939 (and i don't mean the holocaust of Jews here, but the planned and executed extermination of Polish elite class - intelligence, state workers and so on - just to be historically accurate) it was not performed by special nazi forces. Officers addressed common troopers, ordinary men mobilised, saying there is an execution to be done, and that they do understand the moral dilemma here, so they would force nobody to do the killing and there would be no consequences for those who refuse. They where never short of volunteers. It is documented. Germans done what they have done and the line between good and the bad is not so clear. I lived in Germany for awhile and met many wonderful people there. Them Jerries have done a lot to face their history. A part of this job is the law forbidding any nazi symbols.The students above would have been penalised by law there, and there would be no wisecracking about Roman symbols. So would be anyone who dared to bring an aircraft with swastika on it to German air show. So would be careless modellers exposing historically accurate scale models on the show.

I agree with August. Me personally, I wouldn't bear having my personal thing wit hakenkreuz on it. I wouldn't stand it. As a modeller I never even considered building a model of IIww Luftwaffe aircraft. Still, the history connection is important. Well, on the other hand the warbird with nazi symbol on her forced us to discuss the aspect. Maybe not bad job has been done?

Mark, excellent You've brought it up. Keep going!

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Last edited by greatgonzo on Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:31 am 
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Last year one of the Mercedes staff cars came up for auction and one of the collector car magazines had an article along the lines of this thread topic.
Frankly, I was a bit surprised.
Absolutely I can see the sensitivity, but for something as inanimate as an automobile (as opposed to a combat vehicle or military aircraft) I would have thought it was a non-issue.
Perhaps the magazine was just playing it safe in this era where it seems everyone is waiting to be offended.

In the '70s, the old UK magazine Air Enthusiast had a photo and brief story about a man living in the Island of Guernsey who completed a WAR replica small-scale Fw-190.
Out of respect to his older neighbors who suffered under German occupation during the war, he voluntarily omitted the swastika from the paint scheme.
A nice touch I thought.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:04 am 
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greatgonzo wrote:
I wouldn't bare having my personal thing wit hakenkreuz on it. I wouldn't stand it.


Me either. I've been to airshows in Germany too and i can really understand that not many Germans are going to feel comfortable admiring something with this symbol painted on it. If somebody wants to see swastikas, it would raise a lot of questions for me about a persons motivation for being there.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:08 am 
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August wrote:

Quote:
We can agree that being historically accurate is a better reason for risking offending people than being a dick is. That's the only real difference between the two cases.


There is a difference between the two: The swastika on the airplane was an edict of the government; the pilot - who was very likely a not a Nazi - had no say in the matter. The students, on the other hand, had ever say in what they did – they were by their own choice, for the moment at least, Nazis. And they were also part of a historical recreation, that of a Nazi rally.

The difference between the two is this: People who see a historically correct German aircraft from WWII do not say to themselves “I want to be a Nazi,” and the pilot of the airplane is not saying that either. I think most people appreciate this. The students said precisely and with no ambiguity “I want to be a Nazi.” (And they may be labeled as such; any of them who aspire to the Supreme Court, must know that they can be quickly destroyed by a photo from the past)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:06 am 
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I for one would love to fly an FW-190, but if I owned it it would be in these colors:

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https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery ... af-fw-190/

Or these:

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https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/com ... ed_fw_190/

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