Unboxing Kermit's Bf109G

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:37 am

OD/NG wrote:

I didn't know that Meier Motors overhauls German engines. Every picture of the DB engines that I've seen on their facebook page shows them coming from outside contractors after rebuild. Even the DB601 for the Condor Legion 109 which is now zero-timed and ready for flight was done at Nixon's place. When did they start in the DB overhaul business?

My mistake then. I saw pictures during some of their prior builds that looked like they were doing an overhaul of an engine and I thought they were standing up an overhaul operation (at least in part) as they continue to grow the company.

shrike · **Posted:** Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:56 pm

CAPFlyer wrote:

shrike wrote:

CAPFlyer wrote:

... I've never really liked people who overhaul and pickle an engine 5 years or more before they plan to fly. It means that there's a lot of things that will need an in-depth check and possibly even a second overhaul before it gets hung on the airplane. ...

In most cases the engine is the single largest expense, so many homebuilders or restorers (and lets be honest, there is a lot in common) will do that first while the enthusiasm and budget is fresh. It's also a hedge against the project going pear-shaped. You can recoup (or try at least) part of the investment.

Of course that only works if you properly preserve it, which sadly, many don't.

I can understand that desire, however you can always "buy" the overhaul/engine/whatever and then schedule it for "delivery" later on. That's what Kermit did for a couple of his projects and he talked about it in his Vintage V12 video because he has several engines there which he bought and the crew is just waiting on Kermit to say "go" to do the overhaul. I think in at least one case, Kermit has paid for the basic work already as well (which helps Vintage V12s by giving them some liquidity for other projects).

For really big ticket, rara avis type projects that might work, for anything normal, that would be a nogo. That's my day job and just had a meeting with accounting over a customer's engine that's been done and paid for a while that we would really not like to have to store/be responsible for.

DoraNineFan · **Joined:** Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:37 pm **Posts:** 660

CAPFlyer wrote:

Considering that he's spending his time on most of these restorations to control his money outflow and his guys' workload, overhauling the engine is the last thing you do. I've never really liked people who overhaul and pickle an engine 5 years or more before they plan to fly. It means that there's a lot of things that will need an in-depth check and possibly even a second overhaul before it gets hung on the airplane. Why not wait and get the engine when you're actually ready for it - when everything else is done? I think he has the right idea waiting, as he has with other projects, until the project is nearly done and then getting the engine done.

FHC seems to have timed the engine and fuselage for their Stuka very well. I understand the brand-new prop recently left the museum for Vintage V12s where it will be hung onto the Jumo 211 for engine testing. I expect to see the Stuka on her gear with an engine sometime after that.

JohnTerrell · **Posted:** Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:25 pm

Thinking of current Bf-109 and Buchon restorations (to fly) taking place:

- Bf-109E WkNr.1983, at Manching, Germany, fully completed back in 2017, set to fly this year (following some initial issues/further work/further testing of the DB 601 engine over the last year).
- The MeierMotors Spanish Civil War vet Bf-109E in the final stages, expected to fly in 2020.
- Bf-109E WkNr.4034 at Rare Aero in England.
- Bruce Winter's Bf-109G-6 WkNr.410077 at Midwest Aero Restorations in Illinois.
- Graham Peacock's/Anglia Aircraft Restoration's Bf-109G-2 WkNr.14798 at Air Leasing in the UK.
- Kermit Weeks' Bf-109G-6 WkNr.161352 at Don Bradshaw's in Canada.
- Planes of Fame Air Museum's Buchon C.4K-77 N700E.
- Buchon C.4K-152 G-AWHR at Air Leasing in the UK.
- Buchon C.4K-111 G-HISP at Air Leasing in the UK (rep. to be finished in original Spanish AF markings).
- Eric Vormezeele's Buchon C.4K-131 OO-MAF (recently moved to Vormezeele's FAST Aero shop for final work to return to flight).
- Jerry Yagen's Bf-109E WkNr.2023 under restoration in "Eastern Europe" (haven't heard anything on this one for some years).
- Bf-109G-4 D-FWME undergoing ground-up restoration at the Messerschmitt Foundation in Germany (completely rebuilt fuselage, wings, etc.).
- Bf-109G-10 D-FDME at the Messerschmitt Foundation undergoing servicing (cockpit rework, engine and systems).
- Bf-109G-6 D-FMBB, which had been down for long-term restoration, was sold by the Messerschmitt Foundation last year to an undisclosed German buyer.

(Note Air Leasing has become quite a Buchon/109 restoration factory, having already completed three flying Buchon restorations with two more underway in addition and the Bf-109G-2 as well. Of course MeierMotors has also had three different Bf-109G/converted Buchon projects through their shop and currently the Spanish Civil War Bf-109E.)

Spitty · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:46 am

Think there are a couple of K,s around as well.

Tee · **Joined:** Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:37 pm **Posts:** 8

I'm just curious, do all these 109 restorations have flight-capable DB's? And if so where are they coming from?

JohnTerrell · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:34 pm

Evidently there are quite a number of DB engines out there, after all, as they've been coming out of the woodwork. While Jose Flores took over the Merlin/Allison/Griffon overhauls at Vintage V-12's, Mike Nixon's shop has been filled with WWII German engine overhauls for all of the new warbird projects underway - DB 601's, DB 605's, Jumo 211's (the one for the FHCAM Stuka was recently photographed looking very complete/finished), Jumo 213, the two BMW 801's, Argus's, etc.

At this time there are three operational Bf-109E's with DB 601's (two flying and the third set to fly this year), and perhaps as many as three more Bf 109E projects currently underway with, or in the need of, operational DB 601's to fly (not to mention the various F-model projects floating around, that I don't know too much about) - the DB 601 for the Spanish Civil War Bf-109E at MeierMotors was already completed/tested at Nixon's a couple years ago and has since been mounted in the airframe as of last year. In addition to those, there are the three currently operational Bf-109G's with DB 605's, plus three more Bf-109G's that were flying up until recent years, also with DB 605's, which are just currently down for servicing or restoration. In addition to that, there are at least three other Bf-109G restorations currently taking place to fly with DB 605 engines (so as many as nine DB 605's currently operational or will be needed to be operational, covering those currently flying or being worked on to fly within the next few years). Adding to that is Jerry Yagen's Fiat G.55 project (that is if it is still going forward), which will be powered by a DB 605.

marine air · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:01 pm

Back in the 1980's it was a big deal if a Daimler Benz was offered for sale in Trade A Plane. The internet has really opened things up. MY guess is a lot of trade schools and colleges kept the DB's around because they represented such a high technology piston engine. There are also lots of engines being dug up from crash sites all over the place. These can be restored to static display and in some cases be used to exchange for better examples already in museums.
Time between overhauls may improve on these rare engines as more knowledge is gained from operating them. They aren't being pushed hard like in the military and will probably hold up longer.

OD/NG · **Joined:** Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:36 pm **Posts:** 717

CAPFlyer wrote:

OD/NG wrote:

I didn't know that Meier Motors overhauls German engines. Every picture of the DB engines that I've seen on their facebook page shows them coming from outside contractors after rebuild. Even the DB601 for the Condor Legion 109 which is now zero-timed and ready for flight was done at Nixon's place. When did they start in the DB overhaul business?

My mistake then. I saw pictures during some of their prior builds that looked like they were doing an overhaul of an engine and I thought they were standing up an overhaul operation (at least in part) as they continue to grow the company.

Thanks for the clarification. I've been tracking Meier Motors pretty closely over the last 5 years and I just wanted to know if I missed that they were now rebuilding DB's. It's tough keeping up with all the changes and latest news in the warbird world, so it's probable that I've missed some things recently.

:drink3:

Christer · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:19 am

One Swedish built DB605B has found its way to Meier Motors in Germany. In service in Sweden, these engines had TBO:s of several hundred hours. It was used in two types, the SAAB 18 (with the B suffix) and the SAAB 21 (except with the R suffix). Out of these hundreds of engines, more than one must have survived, I guess but finding them is a different question.

DoraNineFan · **Joined:** Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:37 pm **Posts:** 660

Christer wrote:

One Swedish built DB605B has found its way to Meier Motors in Germany. In service in Sweden, these engines had TBO:s of several hundred hours. It was used in two types, the SAAB 18 (with the B suffix) and the SAAB 21 (except with the R suffix). Out of these hundreds of engines, more than one must have survived, I guess but finding them is a different question.

I believe that Volvo-manufactured DB 605 ended up in Jerry Yagen's Bf-109G after overhaul at Vintage V12s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blGCPFRGgh4

DoraNineFan · **Joined:** Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:37 pm **Posts:** 660

JohnTerrell wrote:

Evidently there are quite a number of DB engines out there, after all, as they've been coming out of the woodwork. While Jose Flores took over the Merlin/Allison/Griffon overhauls at Vintage V-12's, Mike Nixon's shop has been filled with WWII German engine overhauls for all of the new warbird projects underway - DB 601's, DB 605's, Jumo 211's (the one for the FHCAM Stuka was recently photographed looking very complete/finished), Jumo 213, the two BMW 801's, Argus's, etc.

At this time there are three operational Bf-109E's with DB 601's (two flying and the third set to fly this year), and perhaps as many as three more Bf 109E projects currently underway with, or in the need of, operational DB 601's to fly (not to mention the various F-model projects floating around, that I don't know too much about) - the DB 601 for the Spanish Civil War Bf-109E at MeierMotors was already completed/tested at Nixon's a couple years ago and has since been mounted in the airframe as of last year. In addition to those, there are the three currently operational Bf-109G's with DB 605's, plus three more Bf-109G's that were flying up until recent years, also with DB 605's, which are just currently down for servicing or restoration. In addition to that, there are at least three other Bf-109G restorations currently taking place to fly with DB 605 engines (so as many as nine DB 605's currently operational or will be needed to be operational, covering those currently flying or being worked on to fly within the next few years). Adding to that is Jerry Yagen's Fiat G.55 project (that is if it is still going forward), which will be powered by a DB 605.

Vintage V12s is also finishing up a Jumo 213, probably for Jerry Yagen's Flugwerk Fw-190D replica. Although the plane is still sitting in the hangar with no apparent activity to manufacture a new cowling to accept the engine. The Collings Foundation has a D-9 project but I don't know if any work is active on it at this time.

Christer · **Posted:** Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:59 am

During the war, the French company Arsenal produced the Jumo 213A for the germans. Post war it was developed into the "Arsenal 12H" and used in a few designs. Are any of those engines still around?

Spitty · **Posted:** Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:13 am

Its documentation and drawings that are keeping the Db series of engines low as most likely the Jumo.Parts can only be copied off originals if no drawings are out there.Parts like the ancillary Gearbox and reduction gearbox are extremely rare to find in any condition.

maradamx3 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:43 am

DoraNineFan wrote:

JohnTerrell wrote:

Evidently there are quite a number of DB engines out there, after all, as they've been coming out of the woodwork. While Jose Flores took over the Merlin/Allison/Griffon overhauls at Vintage V-12's, Mike Nixon's shop has been filled with WWII German engine overhauls for all of the new warbird projects underway - DB 601's, DB 605's, Jumo 211's (the one for the FHCAM Stuka was recently photographed looking very complete/finished), Jumo 213, the two BMW 801's, Argus's, etc.

At this time there are three operational Bf-109E's with DB 601's (two flying and the third set to fly this year), and perhaps as many as three more Bf 109E projects currently underway with, or in the need of, operational DB 601's to fly (not to mention the various F-model projects floating around, that I don't know too much about) - the DB 601 for the Spanish Civil War Bf-109E at MeierMotors was already completed/tested at Nixon's a couple years ago and has since been mounted in the airframe as of last year. In addition to those, there are the three currently operational Bf-109G's with DB 605's, plus three more Bf-109G's that were flying up until recent years, also with DB 605's, which are just currently down for servicing or restoration. In addition to that, there are at least three other Bf-109G restorations currently taking place to fly with DB 605 engines (so as many as nine DB 605's currently operational or will be needed to be operational, covering those currently flying or being worked on to fly within the next few years). Adding to that is Jerry Yagen's Fiat G.55 project (that is if it is still going forward), which will be powered by a DB 605.

Vintage V12s is also finishing up a Jumo 213, probably for Jerry Yagen's Flugwerk Fw-190D replica. Although the plane is still sitting in the hangar with no apparent activity to manufacture a new cowling to accept the engine. The Collings Foundation has a D-9 project but I don't know if any work is active on it at this time.

That engine is upside down! :shock:

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