Boeing Tanker Protest Sustained!!!!!

[mrcrazy]

I have to say that I'm utterly shocked that Boeing won! But there is still time for EADS to protest, perhaps they will? Or they may lay low until the KC-Y & Z come up? Who knows? I wont believe any of it until I start seeing Prats rolling into my shop!

Why are you shocked? Everyone knows that America wins because they are the best, and America loses because someone cheated! If you don't already know that's the attitude in the aerospace industry, you must be quite naïve. Everyone knows this will go on and on but American politics means it will go to Boeing. That's OK, I'm sure that we Europeans can find a way of saying thanks very much, buddy.

[mrcrazy]

Last time I "czeched," French or European was not a race, and Boeing built great tankers to last. Its seems to me that Boeing helped liberate Europe from Nazi rule and helped keep the Cold War cold....thus enabling EADS to even exist.

"These are the facts of the case, they are undisputed"

No sore losers.

Are those the same Boeings that failed to liberate Vietnam?

[aeroeng]

I have to say that I'm utterly shocked that Boeing won! But there is still time for EADS to protest, perhaps they will? Or they may lay low until the KC-Y & Z come up? Who knows? I wont believe any of it until I start seeing Prats rolling into my shop!

Why are you shocked? Everyone knows that America wins because they are the best, and America loses because someone cheated! If you don't already know that's the attitude in the aerospace industry, you must be quite naïve. Everyone knows this will go on and on but American politics means it will go to Boeing. That's OK, I'm sure that we Europeans can find a way of saying thanks very much, buddy.

mrcrazy,
Do you think even before this competition that France or Germany would have considered buying Boeing tankers for their own countries instead of EADS tankers?

aeroeng

[mrcrazy]

I have to say that I'm utterly shocked that Boeing won! But there is still time for EADS to protest, perhaps they will? Or they may lay low until the KC-Y & Z come up? Who knows? I wont believe any of it until I start seeing Prats rolling into my shop!

Why are you shocked? Everyone knows that America wins because they are the best, and America loses because someone cheated! If you don't already know that's the attitude in the aerospace industry, you must be quite naïve. Everyone knows this will go on and on but American politics means it will go to Boeing. That's OK, I'm sure that we Europeans can find a way of saying thanks very much, buddy.

mrcrazy,
Do you think even before this competition that France or Germany would have considered buying Boeing tankers for their own countries instead of EADS tankers?

aeroeng

I think France, alone, would have insisted on EADS, but with the strong economy in Germany, I think the best value bid, Boeing or EADS, would have won for a pan-European tanker aircraft. (the Tories would sell the British workers out in an instant; they know the price of everything and the value of nothing) Then again, who can guess what the best bid would have been.

[The Inspector]

mrcrazy,
So.where have you been the last nearly three years in this discussion? You show up after the movie and want to have the script re written. IF you've followed this discussion, you could possibly realize and recognize that 262crew is speaking sarcastically like Claude Raines in 'CASABLANCA' about 'gambling going on in here' because of all the twists and turns this Greek tragedy has gone through, you see, several of us have seen this card trick pulled before.

I believe that France does, in fact, currently operate a KC-135 fleet and, I think they also operate several 707 tanker derivatives. If the EADS option was so viable then why isn't the French Air Force operating A-310 based tankers instead of clinging to the ancient 707 design? Perhaps if they had taken on a few A-310 based aircraft a few years ago (lord knows they could have probably gotten them really cheaply) and gotten some real world in service experience things might have gone differently for them earlier in the contest. If EADS had offered a tanker version of the 310 instead of the much bigger 330 and I can't believe they wouldn't/couldn't restart the line as they did to build airframes for FEDEX and UPS. Amongst the things SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the announcement was that the DoD got exactly what the specifications asked for. Apparently, someone finally really read the requirements and discovered that the Boeing proposal was what they'd wanted all along and EADS' last moment offer to almost give the aircraft away just to get the contract didn't hold any water with the DoD. If Boeing had chosen to use the 777 as the offered platform, then both offerings would not have been what the customer had asked for, an option offered on the 777 is a folding outer wing panel which was in the original desgin planning for airports where the 777's greater span wouldn't fit in a current gate space, but Boeing stuck to the dimensions and load parameters requested by the customer.

The bidders debrief is on Monday and EADS has until the end of next week to attempt to contest the awarding of the contract.

[the330thbg]

P. A. C.

Pays off!!

How shocking??

In the United States, a political action committee, or PAC, is the name commonly given to a private group, regardless of size, organized to elect political candidates or to advance the outcome of a political issue or legislation. Legally, what constitutes a "PAC" for purposes of regulation is a matter of state and federal law. Under the Federal Election Campaign Act, an organization becomes a "political committee" by receiving contributions or making expenditures in excess of $1,000 for the purpose of influencing a federal election

[the330thbg]

playing games with national defense. I mean, is ANYBODY clean in this whole fiasco?

Nobody is clean in this FIASCO!!

[262crew]

I have to say that I'm utterly shocked that Boeing won! But there is still time for EADS to protest, perhaps they will? Or they may lay low until the KC-Y & Z come up? Who knows? I wont believe any of it until I start seeing Prats rolling into my shop!

If you don't already know that's the attitude in the aerospace industry, you must be quite naïve.

Apparently I'm not the only naive one in the world?

The decision was an upset, with most experts predicting Boeing's European rival EADS would land the victory
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110224/ts ... sairbuswin

Okay, let's see you're hands: Who guessed Boeing? I admit I had my money on split-buy right before the contract award announcement.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/

Boeing pulled off a surprise in beating a European rival and landing a massive $30 billion Pentagon contract to build the next generation of air refueling planes. (Feb 24)

http://www.citrusdaily.com/boeing-lands ... 68852.html

[The Inspector]

330th BG,
That would have to be some set of organizational skills to get Republican and Democratic members of Congress in both the House and the Senate, from several different states to collude with the DoD and Boeing to 'snooker' the award away from EADS.

And, as you can see by the above news service and industry articles from widely different sources, it MUST be some deep, dark, Nigerian/Hawaiian/nazi/socialist/communist plot (have you ever stopped to consider just how disparate all those supposed interwoven schemes really would have to be? 'I hate myself and most of what I stand for, except that part over there, and that one,') to 'steal' the contract away from the friendly Smurf like folks in Europe and award it to those no good, underhanded rotten to the core, Snidely Whiplash child beating sadists from the U.S. because it seems to have blown all the aviation medias collective hats into the river.

[the330thbg]

330th BG,
That would have to be some set of organizational skills to get Republican and Democratic members of Congress in both the House and the Senate, from several different states to collude with the DoD and Boeing to 'snooker' the award away from EADS.

And, as you can see by the above news service and industry articles from widely different sources, it MUST be some deep, dark, Nigerian/Hawaiian/nazi/socialist/communist plot (have you ever stopped to consider just how disparate all those supposed interwoven schemes really would have to be? 'I hate myself and most of what I stand for, except that part over there, and that one,') to 'steal' the contract away from the friendly Smurf like folks in Europe and award it to those no good, underhanded rotten to the core, Snidely Whiplash child beating sadists from the U.S. because it seems to have blown all the aviation medias collective hats into the river.

Good, i am glad you agree!

All it takes is a few million from Boeing to buy off enough votes by taking congressmen out to get them laid and drunk., and BING.., in your favor!

Boeing cried boo hoo when EADS won the first time.., they pumped a few million more into the PAC's and BING.., looky what happened? AMAZING.., gotta love politicians!

Why are you so pro 'Boeing' anyway.., being from WA you should be PO'd. The 787 is in Charleston and your HQ is in Chicago.., Boeing cast off WA like a used condom years ago!

[The Inspector]

AGREE!!??!! You obviously don't recognize when your chain is being seriously yanked. Since at LEAST two of the Senators you want to get 'laid' to 'buy' the contract are female, so, I'm betting that probably won't work out, one of the others is a very family oriented and pretty consrvative Republican from Kansas. The Senate and House of Representatives have and had no direct inputs on the decision, what they did was stand up for the rights of American Jobs and American workers to have a component of American Military Security built in America.

I'm pro American in this matter, I've also been @ this airplane building/maintaining stuff for over 4 decades so I take as very loong view of the 'promised' 45,000 jobs that were supposed to magically 'POP' up in So. Carolina if the KC-45 were to be 'built' there (you don't need 40, 000 people to install carpets and sidewalls). Here we go covering the same old ground again, there is no way on earth that the European Unions would allow the airframe to be built in the U.S., they would grudgingly agree to building completed 'green' airplanes to be finished elsewhere.
As far as the 787 line starting up in Charleston, I remember that ROCKWELL gave up on trying to find competent people to build their 112/114 years ago and closed the plant.

This next paragraph deals with the 787 assemblies coming to Everett from So. Carolina.
I've seen the stuff that comes to Everett from Carolina and it's pretty sketchy as far as quality and attention to detail, lots of hidden mistakes and sloppy work, the sort of things that would get you fired in Renton or Everett for poor workmanship. Fiberoptic cables that run the airplanes electrical systems pulled and twisted from being used as handholds to get up from where you were working, fiberoptical ables bent 90 degrees over structure (F.O. is made of thin glass and isn't happy being pulled or bent sharply) but afterall, they are only used to make the airplane controllable and fly safely so who cares?

You sound to me like someone with a huge axe to grind about something with Boeing and seem to be holding some kind of grudge against Boeing, I've worked there a few times over the years and overall am satisfied with all aspects of how I was treated, I've worked other places, been treated better by some, far worse by others, so Boeing is about average to work for. Are you against maintaining current jobs in America? Are you anti American jobs?

South Carolina will turn out to resolve itself as time goes along as far as building a quality product in a timely manner, but that's another airplane isn't it?

[the330thbg]

AGREE!!??!! You obviously don't recognize when your chain is being seriously yanked. Since at LEAST two of the Senators you want to get 'laid' to 'buy' the contract are female, so, I'm betting that probably won't work out, one of the others is a very family oriented and pretty consrvative Republican from Kansas

How many 'family oriented' senators, congressmen, etc.. have been rocked by sexual scandals over the past 5 years?

More than can fit on this page!

There is nothing wrong with being pro-American. (whatever the heck that means) considering that 99% of Americans come from anywhere besides America, but this decision was rigged from the start. EADS won fair and square.., but when it comes to American politics, any politics.., those words do not matter. Follow the money trail! Follow the money votes!

[The Inspector]

Nice job of Cherry Picking one point, avoiding all the others, and trying to shift the discussion in another direction 'never mind the smoke, listen to the violin music'. I'm beginning to suspect that you were hoping to make a financial killing by selling something to EADS or So. Carolina and now you're P.O.'d because it'll never happen.
I'm third generation American, my kids are fourth generation, my seven grandkids are fifth generation, so your 'argument' that 'everyone came from somewhere else' is pretty weak. Like I said to Iclo, if EADS had won, so be it and I could accept that, Boeing has been selected so please stop looking in dark corners for the 'dirty S.O.B.'s who stole this from those guys. it's done, it's finished,don't like it if you want, but the process is over, and after 10 years of back and forth, our military aircrews will finally get the modern airplane they so richly deserve and we can start to park 50 + year old antiques before they fall out of the sky.
Let me guess, your next warhoop was going to have something to do with the 767 being an old design, define old design, the airframes will all be new build with new engines, updated and modern avionics suites and capabilities so they will be brand new airframes, the 737 is an 'old design' that Boeing can't build fast enough after 45 years of production.
A tin tube is a tin tube and ain't much has changed since Junkers built an all metal airplane in 1916, 'yes, but the 330 is......' bigger than asked for, more expensive to operate over the proposed life cycle of the airplane, would be more expensive in logistical support (newer, bigger hangers and maintenance facilities, bigger ramp pads which would cut down on the number of aircraft per base) one thing that was never touched on to any degree, nor addressed in more than passing, was where would the MULTIPLE BILLIONS of Dollars come from to build all this new infrastructure? Another tax cut? is too slow to handle parts of our inventory but can't go slow enough to accommodate the other end of the spectrum.

[Iclo]

The Inspector: what I like with you, it's your capability to destroy your own arguments.

1) You said that's a good thing that the decision was made to provide work to American workers.

2) and before you said the decision was fair and based on only real criterion about the performance, cost, etc of the two proposed planes ?

Hum, could you explain to us how it's possible to say these two thing without being in complete contradiction ?

If the "Amercan job" argument come in the choice, the decision was unfair. It's simple...

In French, we have a specific expression about that "se tirer une balle dans le pied" Literaly, "shoot a bullet in his own foot". And in this case, you shoot a complete magazine...

Just a few more think:

1) The project to build a manufactory in thre USAi was to assembly the plane. Not like you ironicaly said "to put the carpet in the plane" These kink of sentence said long about your mentality and how fair your point of view is...

2) If the deal had been fair, the plane would have been assembled in the exisiting EADS and come in the USA only to be delivered.

3) Be sure that after this unfair, politics and cheating deal, the oppinion in others countries will remember that, the next time US manufacter will come trying to sell plane or other equipement in our countries.

[Iclo]

, 'yes, but the 330 is......' bigger than asked for, more expensive to operate over the proposed life cycle of the airplane, would be more expensive in logistical support (newer, bigger hangers and maintenance facilities, bigger ramp pads which would cut down on the number of aircraft per base) one thing that was never touched on to any degree, nor addressed in more than passing, was where would the MULTIPLE BILLIONS of Dollars come from to build all this new infrastructure? Another tax cut? is too slow to handle parts of our inventory but can't go slow enough to accommodate the other end of the spectrum.

Hum, and after that, I hope you will explain two us, two more thing:

1) if the EADS product is so outside the scope, why Boeing had to cheat to win the first bid ? In my business, when I know that my produt is far better, I'm simply confidente and wait the logical conclusion of the buyer...

2) Because you are so informed, could explain the evolution of the requirement between the different bid ? Strange as the requirement expressed for this "third round" were describing the Boeing product...