Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:29 pm
Gary,
thought I would jump over here to see if you had any more updates. I start to get withdrawls if I don't see anything new in 4 hrs. Keep up the great work.
David
thought I would jump over here to see if you had any more updates. I start to get withdrawls if I don't see anything new in 4 hrs. Keep up the great work.
David
Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:36 pm
I can’t blame you Gary for not keeping are "fix" in check. 
It seems you have a lot to worry about. Being the head of transforming, this now classic aircraft that has become well known in the airshow circuit, into this first generation bomber is an extraordinary task!
For those about to rock, we salute you -ACDC
(For some of you old duffers that might be a little too old to like this)
It seems you have a lot to worry about. Being the head of transforming, this now classic aircraft that has become well known in the airshow circuit, into this first generation bomber is an extraordinary task!
For those about to rock, we salute you -ACDC
(For some of you old duffers that might be a little too old to like this)
Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:14 am
Sabremech wrote:Gary,
thought I would jump over here to see if you had any more updates. I start to get withdrawls if I don't see anything new in 4 hrs. Keep up the great work.
David
Touche'!
Gary
Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:02 am
Well, there's nothing like getting here early in the morning, already exhausted from months of hard work, trying to put on a happy face for the world to see, and then having a major setback get thrown in your face. That's what just happened to me. What started out to be a somewhat normal day is turning into "one of those days" pretty dang quick.
As y'all know by now, I'm no professional painter. I've painted a few airplanes here and there, along with cars, motorcycles, etc., in the past. Some have turned out wonderfully, while others aren't so great. But for the most part, I know which end of the paint gun the wet stuff comes out of and which way to point it.
The paint for this B-24 was supposed to be easy. Flat black, brown, and green. All colors were duplicated from a book of original Army/Navy paint chips I have in my personal collection. This was supposed to be easy. However, from the start, the black paint, in particular, has given me troubles. It seems that in the old days, paint shops would use a powder to flatten colors out, which thickened the paint up. No problem, since you could simply use reducer to thin the paint back to a sprayable material. Nowadays, however, the flattener is a liquid (some environmental issues, I'm told). So now, when the flattener is added, it makes the paint thinner...much thinner. That was the problem with the black paint from the start.
I've had several folks ask me why I'm having so much trouble with spraying black. It's probably the easiet color to shoot overall. However, when you start out with paint that is the consistency of warm water, it's difficult to shoot it without it running off the airplane...not to mention that it's dang near transparent and requires several coats to get it right. Interestingly, the brown and green has been, for the most part, fairly trouble free. The only issue I've had with them is the fact that it occationally turns out glossy, rather than flat. The conditions in which I'm painting (open hangar), along with the rare humidity issues in Midland that only come about on the mornings I'm trying to paint, are certainly contributing factors to that glossiness. I usually get away with adding a second coat the following day and the paint will flatten right out, as advertised.
Yesterday's application of paint to the engine cowlings went right along with current tradition. The black paint was thin and transparent (although runs were kept to a minimum this time), and the brown paint stayed glossy. I figured that was no big deal and I'd just fix it this morning. So I started with the black, and mixed it as I've mixed it so many other times. I try to mix all of the paint products I use as close to the manufacturer's recommendations as possible (although I use no reducer with the black since it's so thin anyway).
As I started applying the black paint, everything looked fine. I made my way from the aft, outbd. portion of the #4 cowling, up towards the front. As I was moving the ladder, I heard something that sounded like firecrackers going off in the far distance (I'm very hard of hearing, so it's amazing that I was able to pick that sound up). I looked up and this is what I found............
Yep, the paint was cracking like a freshly poured bowl of Kellogg's Rice Krispies.
I have paint stripper that doesn't work this well at ruining paint. Talk about disgusted....man, I was saying a few choice words at this point (which most of you certainly could've heard, had they not been muffled by my respirator)!
So after a few moments, I thought, "you know, Gary, it's not all that bad. It's just one color on one side of one cowling. Just suck it up, don't worry about it, fix it later, and move on." So that's what I did. I decided that since the brown still needed to be flattened out, I'd move on to it.
Same song, different verse (only it took longer to start it's reaction, so I managed to get both sides of the cowling painted...I mean ruined
)........
So here it is, only a little over two hours into my day, and I'm already as grumpy as a physician at a Malpractice Attorney's Convention.
Now, I'm sure that many of you out there will recognize and know some of the problems that are causing this dilemma. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on it (or even better, having you come down to fix it for me), but I'm also going to have some "discussion" with the local paint supplier with this today. I've had some previous sessions with them regarding my difficulties with the paint, and they've actually been pretty helpful...to a point. I'll see how it goes with them today.
Nevertheless, I've now inherited yet another setback that I've got to deal with before the unveiling of the airplane. This must be fixed, because as we know, the general public rarely notices what's right...only what's wrong.
Gary
As y'all know by now, I'm no professional painter. I've painted a few airplanes here and there, along with cars, motorcycles, etc., in the past. Some have turned out wonderfully, while others aren't so great. But for the most part, I know which end of the paint gun the wet stuff comes out of and which way to point it.
The paint for this B-24 was supposed to be easy. Flat black, brown, and green. All colors were duplicated from a book of original Army/Navy paint chips I have in my personal collection. This was supposed to be easy. However, from the start, the black paint, in particular, has given me troubles. It seems that in the old days, paint shops would use a powder to flatten colors out, which thickened the paint up. No problem, since you could simply use reducer to thin the paint back to a sprayable material. Nowadays, however, the flattener is a liquid (some environmental issues, I'm told). So now, when the flattener is added, it makes the paint thinner...much thinner. That was the problem with the black paint from the start.
I've had several folks ask me why I'm having so much trouble with spraying black. It's probably the easiet color to shoot overall. However, when you start out with paint that is the consistency of warm water, it's difficult to shoot it without it running off the airplane...not to mention that it's dang near transparent and requires several coats to get it right. Interestingly, the brown and green has been, for the most part, fairly trouble free. The only issue I've had with them is the fact that it occationally turns out glossy, rather than flat. The conditions in which I'm painting (open hangar), along with the rare humidity issues in Midland that only come about on the mornings I'm trying to paint, are certainly contributing factors to that glossiness. I usually get away with adding a second coat the following day and the paint will flatten right out, as advertised.
Yesterday's application of paint to the engine cowlings went right along with current tradition. The black paint was thin and transparent (although runs were kept to a minimum this time), and the brown paint stayed glossy. I figured that was no big deal and I'd just fix it this morning. So I started with the black, and mixed it as I've mixed it so many other times. I try to mix all of the paint products I use as close to the manufacturer's recommendations as possible (although I use no reducer with the black since it's so thin anyway).
As I started applying the black paint, everything looked fine. I made my way from the aft, outbd. portion of the #4 cowling, up towards the front. As I was moving the ladder, I heard something that sounded like firecrackers going off in the far distance (I'm very hard of hearing, so it's amazing that I was able to pick that sound up). I looked up and this is what I found............
Yep, the paint was cracking like a freshly poured bowl of Kellogg's Rice Krispies.
I have paint stripper that doesn't work this well at ruining paint. Talk about disgusted....man, I was saying a few choice words at this point (which most of you certainly could've heard, had they not been muffled by my respirator)!
So after a few moments, I thought, "you know, Gary, it's not all that bad. It's just one color on one side of one cowling. Just suck it up, don't worry about it, fix it later, and move on." So that's what I did. I decided that since the brown still needed to be flattened out, I'd move on to it.
Same song, different verse (only it took longer to start it's reaction, so I managed to get both sides of the cowling painted...I mean ruined
)........
So here it is, only a little over two hours into my day, and I'm already as grumpy as a physician at a Malpractice Attorney's Convention.
Now, I'm sure that many of you out there will recognize and know some of the problems that are causing this dilemma. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on it (or even better, having you come down to fix it for me), but I'm also going to have some "discussion" with the local paint supplier with this today. I've had some previous sessions with them regarding my difficulties with the paint, and they've actually been pretty helpful...to a point. I'll see how it goes with them today.
Nevertheless, I've now inherited yet another setback that I've got to deal with before the unveiling of the airplane. This must be fixed, because as we know, the general public rarely notices what's right...only what's wrong.
Gary
Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:54 am
Did this application go over the same type of primer. Looks like some kind of incompatable problem. That or maybe not enough drying time inbetween primer and finish coat. At least thats a point to look for the problem, I'm no expert, but like you I have a little experience painting, although mostly with dopes. (the fabric kind also)
Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:58 am
just tell the general public that it was done that way back in the 40's as the boffins found that it caused a thin film of turbulant air to form over the surface of the aircraft and this film in turn reduced the drag of the aircraft. 
seriously there is no point letting it bother you, it's done now and has to be undone. getting angry or upset will just ruin your day and waste even more of your time... having said that i'd probably be banging my head against the hanger frame and twitching uncontrolably if it happened to me. insert psychological brake emoticon here
seriously there is no point letting it bother you, it's done now and has to be undone. getting angry or upset will just ruin your day and waste even more of your time... having said that i'd probably be banging my head against the hanger frame and twitching uncontrolably if it happened to me. insert psychological brake emoticon here
Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:52 am
Obergrafeter wrote:Did this application go over the same type of primer. Looks like some kind of incompatable problem. That or maybe not enough drying time inbetween primer and finish coat.
Well, the primer is definitely a suspect. The rest of the airplane (for the most part) has just been scuffed and shot, but the cowlings were stripped, prepped, primed, and then shot. The only thing that makes me think it's not the primer is the fact that the first coat of paint did fine, other than the transparent black and the glossy brown. It was this second coat of paint, on top of the coat sprayed yesterday morning (24 hours ago) that gave me trouble. Difficult for me to say what it is right now, but I'll be the first customer at the paint shop today. Perhaps I'll know what I've done wrong then.
Gary
Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:26 am
Gary, what kind of paint are you using ? Sounds like it flashed super fast. Maybe the reducer has an inhibitor built in to slow the reaction ?
Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:28 am
That's really frustrating. There's probably a loooong German word for 'the frustration of paint that won't behave'. 
Keep going Gary.
Keep going Gary.
Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:26 am
RickH wrote:Gary, what kind of paint are you using ? Sounds like it flashed super fast. Maybe the reducer has an inhibitor built in to slow the reaction ?
PPG Somethingorother. It's a catalyst type paint. Recommended mixing, 1 parts paint, 1 part catalyst, 1 part reducer. Since the black is so stinkin' watery anyway, no reducer has been used. The paint shop agreed with that tactic. I mixed the brown the same as always and got the same result as the black (as you've seen).
I have the paint rep coming out today (or so they tell me
). It'll be interesting to see what their take on it is.
Blame the primer
Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:44 am
Gary ime not a pro but it looks like the paint had some sort of major disagreement with the type of primer harsh words were exchanged and the paint tried to jump free.
OK I know just trying to cheer you up after this letdown.
Ill get my coat......
OK I know just trying to cheer you up after this letdown.
Ill get my coat......
Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:56 am
Gary, just thinking out loud, but I wonder if some contaminates got somewhere they shouldn’t be when you had that problem with that drum of paint stripper last December.
Paint
Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:07 am
Gary,
I don't know if you've painted any vintage aircraft radio's, but the crinkle paint that is used looks just like what you have achieved on the cowlings. The way that it is done is that you apply one layer of paint - let it dry and then apply another coat of paint. The two layers of paint curing at separate intervals causes the paint to crinkle. Do you think that is what may have happened?
I don't know if you've painted any vintage aircraft radio's, but the crinkle paint that is used looks just like what you have achieved on the cowlings. The way that it is done is that you apply one layer of paint - let it dry and then apply another coat of paint. The two layers of paint curing at separate intervals causes the paint to crinkle. Do you think that is what may have happened?
Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:28 am
Eric...good question, but we didn't use anymore of that paint stripper that we had the problems with, once it reared it's ugly head. We had only used it for a couple of sample pieces at the time. Thank goodness.
Quest Master...excellent point! That describes the incident pretty well. It does look like crinkle paint. However, I would've sworn the first coat that was painted on 24 hours earlier, would've been cured by the time I applied the second coat. But if it hadn't, then your synopsis may be correct. Hmmmm, so that means that I should let the paint cure for a few more days and try it again?
Gary
Quest Master...excellent point! That describes the incident pretty well. It does look like crinkle paint. However, I would've sworn the first coat that was painted on 24 hours earlier, would've been cured by the time I applied the second coat. But if it hadn't, then your synopsis may be correct. Hmmmm, so that means that I should let the paint cure for a few more days and try it again?
Gary
Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:48 am
darn, that sucks. I've had that happen before to me. In my case, there is a window of opportunity to do the second coat, and I was beyond that window. I was using an acrylic enamel and the recoat was to be within an hour or after 5 days. Your window should be nowhere near that though.