Warbird Information Exchange

While we are on the subject in a past post:

1. What would you want and what do you expect from joining a Warbird organizaion, group, club, museum?.

2. what would you want or expect if you donated your warbird to one of the above groups?.

3. What do you think the above groups would or should expect from you.

good questions.

As the leader of one, I would like the members to come to our get-together, they don't have to have a warbird. We have a good time at them. Spread the word if they like the group so we can have more members or get old members to re-join. Write us, letters, articles or just a note about how they feel about the Org. And of course, pay their dues. www.NorthAmericantrainer.org

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I guess not much of a joiner. Thats about it. I'm greedy, I want something back. Anything, at all. Even the good old timey feel good feeling.

The ORG's I've seen are both or either of a "Good ole Boys" or "Retirement" clubs. I'm sure not all of them are like that, but my experience is ungood.

I belong in neither. It doesn't matter, because I've never been asked to join, even for the dues. I guess I'm not their kinda cat, even though I see them almost every month, am friends with some of them, and spend a sh1tpile of money and time on flying and flying warbirds.

One org has a semi permanently disassembled airplane in a hanger I go to at least once a month. When I asked what it would take, or if I could give money (2500-4000, thats what it would take), to get it going, and if I could take part....heheheeee, I was told that the plane was pretty much the "property" of 4 guys, and don't bother, they don't care.....One of them was there when I was told that, and he just smiled.

Another org, I actually donated an airplane to. I thought that that would at least make me a nice guy. I guess I'm not. Besides the one person that collected the airplane, I was either non-existant, or the guy that the "Collector" or the "Marketing director" had to whisper in the ear of the the 200 year old codgers in the restoration hanger, "He donated the plane, be nice". What a bunch of turds. It was a retirement club, and if you weren't vetted by Ned-Ted-Fred, whatever the h3ll his 200 year old a$$es name was, you were dirt.

The majority of my flying friends, especially warbird flying friends are 20-30 years older than me. And guess what? They don't belong to those org's either. Wierd. I told them about this stuff and they said the same things I said to them back to me about those orgs.

We're friends for one reason, Warbirds. Age, experience, how much you got laid in the PI, makes no difference. Just Warbirds.


If you think that I don't care how old you are, you're right. If you were a 20 year old a$$hole, you're probably gonna be an 80 year old a$$hole. Those kinda folks tend to gravitate to orgs. Gives them a sense of power their ole lady won't let them have at home.

I read the posts on "Young Wixers" and the "Future of the CAF". I'll tell you something. It's me. I am the young Wixer, I am the near future of the CAF and EAA. I am the near future of the Warbird movement. I am 43, with no bills. I have money and free time. Children and 20-30 somethings don't have that.

I'm off track and on a rant. If you want your "Org" to be cool, I hate to use the PC word, but make it "inclusive". Don't let members chase folks off by being "Old Codgers" or whatever they are. Remember, who has the money and the time. I'm not saying neglect everyone else, but, just remember.

As for me, I'm just gonna wait another 10-15 years until all of them cats are dead. Then I'm gonna join their cool org. Until then, I guess I'll get the 100LL and the AeroShell for my buds. At least I get to touch, clean, help, and fly, the airplanes, and not get treated like a doushe.

Thanks,
Orvis

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Deep Thoughts,
Jack Handy

Hey O P ...I wonder if it is something about "our generation" that makes us tend to shy away from groups like the ones you speak of here? Being also 43, we are part of the same generation that seems to really not give a shiite if we belong to a group or not. I have been talked down to by several warbird owners and I gotta tell ya that I for one don't care if you wear a Rolex or a Timex, they are still humans and it would be nice to be talked to like one! Usually can tell within a short time if a warbird owner/pilot is gonna be respectful. I have had the great pleasure of shootin the bull with some great fellas like Bill Greenwood and Bob Odegaard who are so non-pretentious and as normal as can be to a numbskull like me

In the inimitable words of George Thorogood..."ya know when I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself". Maybe the motto of our generation

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Earn my respect and never lose it.
Demand my respect and never gain it. -Me

...just another plane dreamer.

Most of us in the American Flight Museum are middle age still working Real jobs and enjoy working on and flying our Goon.
1. Have Fun
2. Make Money
these are the two things we try to do to keep our plane in the air. All of our members are welcome to go to airshows for free as long as they take turns with tours and PX sales.

Please re-read my port, especially the first two sentences.

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I should probably keep out of this, but just can't help myself. This isn't a personal attack on you O.P., it's just my own experience after three years with Yankee. I'm not speaking for the museum. Just myself.

If you want to talk "futures", I'm 28. I've seen that attitude come into the hangar a dozen times already, and seen it wander right back out the door. The biggest problem with "you guys" is the preconceived notions that they have when you walk in the door. They carry it in like a ton of bricks. Guys that think they're natural-born world shakers who are going to show these old codgers how it's done. They're gonna turn the museum on its ear and really shake things up. Clean up the messes, teach them the RIGHT WAY TO DO THINGS! After two months they stop coming in, and after six months, no one remembers their face.

The biggest thing that these guys fail at is that they don't take some time and learn the system. They run head long into a brick wall (of some old fart that won't change his ways) that they could have just as easily avoided altogether by dealing with other people. No matter how good at what they did that person was, or how useful to the organization they could have been, they're out the door, and that's a shame. It's wrong, but the guy who quits is in the wrong too.

That "good old boys flying club" certainly exists. I'm not going to blow sunshine up your tushy and say it doesn't, because I've been shafted by it this year, and shafted last year, and probably will get the short end of the stick on something next year too. But, not to sound like a battered wife, it does exist for a reason. Those "good old boys" have been putting in five or six days a week for 20+ years and they got opportunities over a guy like me that's put in 3 years of a handful of days a week. I didn't think it was entirely fair, but I understood the logic. You can't just walk in off the street on Monday and expect to get checked out as a flight engineer on Wednesday. Too many people have that attitude, and they get burned out quick when they see that the six months or the year that they've put in doesn't earn them a lifetime's worth of respect.



Every organization, all of them, has several people that are an obnoxious PITA. We could probably fire up a thread titled "people out at the museum who deserve to be beaten with a hammer" that would have more posts than the diamond 'lil thread in a week. It happens, and it's the price of doing business. I ignore most of those guys, and can handle the ones I have to deal with. That's life, everyplace has people that have the goal of making you miserable, and they succeed if you let them. Those jerks exist because no one else is filling their place. The guys that have to work with those jerks all probably know that those guys are jerks, but have learned to either let it slide, or ignore it altogether.



Guess what you're going to find in 10-15 years? Take a reeeeeeeaal long hard guess? If you said a utopia of a museum, with a flying B-32 that everyone rides for free, sunshiny happy people that all get along in peaceful harmony and welcome everyone with open arms, and a .50 caliber ball turret that shoots gumdrops and lollipops, then I would like a pallet load of whatever you've been prescribed. If you said an organization made of a new set of the same kind of people after 10-15 years, then you win the free Britney Spears concert tickets, and the blind date with Stevie Wonder. The guys that do the work for the next 10-15 years are going to act and be treated the same way. Why? because they'll be the ones that have been doing it for 10-15 years. Period. Does it suck for the motivated new guy that wants to learn? Yes. Is it fair to the guy that has been out at the hangar for 15 years and has been useless as boobs on a snake for that whole time? No. Is that the way it is and probably always will be? Yeah, probably

If you want to see that attitude change, then do it from inside. Join up, do your thing, don't be an elitist @$$, and come home at the end of the day satisfied with the thoughts of a job well done. If you let the politics, the crap, the idiots, the shouda-woulda-coulda-oughtas, and the overall level of bovine scatology get to you, then you will burn out and leave with a bad taste in your mouth. I hate seeing that. I warn people about it at every turn. Newer, younger guys that come in the door, the ones that look like they're going to make it. I try and explain to them that there are a LOT of negative things that can get them down, if they let it.

I have worked with several warbird organizations.

RANT ON...


1. I expect a warm greeting and acceptance of my offer of free skilled labor. What I have received is a hard sell to pay dues and become a member, attend unproductive meetings, and join one of the cliques within the group. I am a very mobile mechanic, and cannot put down roots with a single organization, but they still push their sales pitch, usually until it pushes me away for good. I had one group say I could no longer work for free on their warbird unless I became a dues-paying member, so I left. Freaking idiots.


2. I expect recognition of my expertise. I have 20 years in aircraft maint/repair, with heavy emphasis on structures. I bring with me $100,000+ of tools and equipment. I own about every sheet metal tool known to mankind. What I am confronted with are old codgers who are still using tools and techniques that are decades out of date. Yeah, they worked in wartime 60 years ago, but are very inefficient today. I could show these guys my structures tools and they wouldn’t know what 30% of them are, or what they do.
They don’t want to change. I can work circles around them, and they are content to go at a snail’s pace. I think some of them are afraid to complete a project and lose their reason to get out of the house.


3. I want to work with a group that is serious about restoration work. Most of the members of these groups are just there to hangar fly, get away from the wife, or anything BUT work. When I show at the hangar on Saturday, I get a little pissed that only 2-3 people, of a group of 12-15, are actually doing any work. If you aren’t going to work, stay out of the hangar.


4. If the org is restoring aircraft to airworthy status, they darn well better have a person in charge that knows what that means. I started helping a group with a small single engine warbird. It was a basket case and the man in charge was a retired A&P who hadn’t done any serious aircraft work in many years. I tried several times to explain serious defects in their reconstruction, to no avail. He, and the group, simply thought the aircraft was a toy to play with, and were using the TLAR (that looks about right) method of restoration. I guess most of these people have never seen pilots burned beyond recognition. I left him a 3-page letter of my concerns, took photos and washed my hands of the project. If it crashes, and the feds ask me about it, I’m not going to lie, and the lawyers will have a field day.


5. A little appreciation would be nice. When I put in 8 hrs of skilled services on Saturday, that would cost a bizjet owner $1000, why not give me a free hotdog and coke at the hangar picnic, instead of charging me $5 to “support the org”. I think my contributions are quite a bit more valuable than many other members.
How about giving the guys who did the most work, fist dibs on getting a ride? Actual contribution to the effort doesn’t mean much, once the aircraft is ready to play with.

I don’t give a rat’s patoot about being a member of any organization. I just want to save a small part of America’s aviation treasure.

RANT OFF.

I have to agree, I have given the thought of joining a warbird organization many times, only to realize that my money is the only reason they want me to join. Their very nice to you when you're getting the pitch, but after you pay your fees, you are forgotten ... I hope that's not the case with all the groups out there, but with the couple I looked at, that was the case. I could tell even before I thought of joining. I know a pitch when I hear it. POF seemed an exception and maybe the So Cal wing of the CAF. I have been treated well by both, (with the exception of Dan, CAF So Cal .... lolol, joking Dan)

What I would rather do is get involved with a single owner of a warbird that I could become "hands-on" involved with. I don't need rides all the time, but I think it would be fun to become a crew member in some way. Show up at an airshow and feel I was involved with that particular airplane. Not an orgaization, but an airplane. If the owner needed funding, I would have no problem with that. Maybe stencil my name in the wheel well or a t-shirt or something. Just the feeling of sitting in a chair under the wing on the inside of the rope, I don't know, anything like that.

I actually have been pursuing the idea of investing in a Mustang, but it's very difficult to do out here for me. Not to mention there's a few who feel I'm full of S**T!! .... I've always thought that being an investor in a Reno racer could be fun as well. I think that would be fun to be a part of the race team. But the problem with all the above ideas is that most ... not all ... private warbird owners are egocentric and arrogent ... NOT ALL!!!! ... but many I have met, and I have no time for people like that ... I don't care what warbird they own.

I have been to airshows where I have walked up to an airplane and seen the owner sitting in a chair on the other side of the rope, under the wing and acted annoyed that people would come up and just ask simple questions about everything and nothing. Most people I see at airshows are very respectful of an owner's airplane and time, but some of these kooks feel annoyed by anyone trying to talk to them ... I say to these guys, take your airplane and go home if you can't take the fans attention. If you don't want us ... we don't need you.

Remember, without us ... you're siiting there under your wing alone. And then you will only have yourself to try to make jelious.

My last thought is this .... I support warbird organizations by attending your airshows, paying for a ticket to attend, paying for parking, paying for food .... and REALLY!!! paying to sit in your cockpits sometimes. But I thank you for that anyway because I love to watch you fly. Just lose the ego's. .... and get in shape .... Too many short, fat pilots out there flying warbirds, you look like a bad ass in that cockpit taxiing by until you climb out .... hehehehe .... tease!!!!

I've been up to my chin in the car restoration world, and its the same way. You will find the nicest, most genuine fun to be with people in the world there, but you have to push past a lot of asses to get to them.

B

HOPE I DONT STEP IN IT

I was just curious if there is a true problem with organizations. I think aviation in general have our share of ...well .... a$$3S. I am proud to say I may be one of them LOL ...

It sounds to me that there are communication issues. There are basically 4 different personalities and not that I am going to go into it here I would suggest that It is the leadership that recognizes and uses the strengths of those personalities to their potential that will benefit.

For example: I know jack $hit about bending wrenches compared to flying, yet when I walk into the hangar and want to lend a hand fixing them my role as the owner has now taken a back seat because I hired this guy to do this job because he is supposed to be good! If he is not I made a poor decision and therefore I have to respect his knowledge and authority...in other words I shut my mouth and open my ears and truly enjoy the schooling. For those personalities that enter the hangar and are more talk than action then maybe they should be taking photos and writing the newsletter and doing the website. For those personalities that are more dominant, then give them the responsibility of a team leader position.



I think that organizations can also benefit by succession planning and always have a young jedi in training .... and remember there is always a master and apprentice..... *** bad line sorry!



As for the respect... if you have the money and donate the aircraft and your time that is great but i think there might be a few things to consider...

1) What type of organization are you looking to give to

2) What is it that you are lookign for in return and you have to be honest:

is it a donation receipt?

a pat on the back?

a badge that says i am the money guy?

name on the plane?

the number of women you have been painted on the aircraft **because of this plane>??

or to maintain / fly her?



There are different reasons why you would donate or join but you have to be upfront with yourself and the leadership of the organization. If you don’t know what you are looking for yourself, or don’t tell the organization what you want, then you will pretty much get what you ask for – ask for nothing, and that’s exactly what you will get, but if you are on the same page then I am thinking it could be a great experience. Know what you want, go into it knowing what you want, and be up front and say what you are looking for, then you’ll have a better chance getting out of an organization just what you want.

1. What would you want and what do you expect from joining a Warbird organizaion, group, club, museum?.

To be part of the group

3. What do you think the above groups would or should expect from you.
They should expect me to help with anything they ask, be it skilled or unskilled labor.

My very first day at the organization that I'm a part of, I spent the entire day sanding, then the next week stripping paint. Then I graduated to cleaning oil drip pans. Then as people got to know me, I got to do better and cooler things. I think you just have to stick with it for a while. Get to know people a little.

I for one am an EAA guy around home, and it is a great org. All you need is an interest. Same with my CAF Wing and the NMUSAF. If you have an interest and want to be there, then have at it.

_________________
Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

1. What would you want and what do you expect from joining a Warbird organizaion, group, club, museum?.

A purpose other than socialization. Nothing irks me more than attending a meeting or activity for the sole purpose of determining when the next meeting is...

2. what would you want or expect if you donated your warbird to one of the above groups?. I would expect that it would be taken care of. I would expect that the group would do with it whatever they deemed necessary, provided that they lived up to whatever stipulations were agreed to. Above that, what can you expect?

3. What do you think the above groups would or should expect from you.

I know what we expect. You have to ask yourself: are you willing to get involved in all phases..maintenance, flight ops, floor sweeping and emptying the porta potty?

We wear many hats here. It is critical that everyone be willing to do whatever is necessary to complete a mission or task.

You also should enjoy the work. The flying part of what we do is the very small part. Deaing with the public, showing the plane, helping with maintenance... that's what keeps the operation moving.

Look the part, know your role and perform it well. Wear the uniform the way its supposed to be worn.

Do not be a self appointed expert. Just because you have the keys to the tug doesnt make you qualified to drive it. Just because you have read Flying magazine your whole life does not make you an expert.

You should be satisfied just to participate in something great, whether its the glitzy stuff, or the behind the scenes support role. Each is necessary for the final outcome.

_________________
Kevin Kearney
Vice President
Berlin Airlift Historical Foundation


C-54D "Spirit of Freedom" 43-17228
C-97 "Angel of Deliverance" 52-2718 (painted as YC-97A 45-59595)
C-54E/R5D-4 "Spirit of Freedom" 44-9144 BuNo 90414 (wfu April/2020)
http://www.spiritoffreedom.org

I've tried becoming a part of a few aviation organizations with bad results as well. After reflecting on why this is, I've determined the following:

A) I never served. I did not matter that it was because of a medical condition.

B) I'm a skydiver. Skydivers, in my experience, are looked upon by the GA and warbird communities as being lunatics. We're actually very careful, detail oriented and calculate what can go wrong and how to deal with it. Let me remind you that first it was hot air balloons, then parachutes, gliders and finally, powered aircraft. The same kind of schism seems to be common among sail boat people and powered boat people.

C) I'm a liberal politically. Some of the casual conversations I've overheard among the members the groups I've attended were quite caustic, and that attitude leaks out during the meetings via anecdotes regarding the 'liberals' who are out to do harm to....etc.