Warbird Information Exchange

ok, i know on the grand scale of world problems this is pretty trivial to squawk about!! but the issue really gets under my skin!!! i subscribe to 7 aviation magazines, get forklifts full of aviation related junk mail & catalogs, not to mention i have had a keen interest in model building since i was a kid. what am i squawking about??? ww 2 german luftwaffe models that don't come with period correct swastikas!! i'm no neo nazi!! in fact i'm jewish!! i am not insulted or offended by seeing die cast models or buildable model kits with the hateful swastika emblem. granted it is an evil symbol, but as an aviation historian i prefer accuracy of the period. i have numerous ww 2 german items in my collection with this symbol. my family understands, i'm a historian... period!! if the model companies want to make a statement for the benefit of mankind for the future, then let them tell it like it was. sugar coating, or historical revisionism is counter productive to 21st century thinking. history is important, so mistakes don't repeat themselves. it's pretty dumb that model makers don't have the guts or b--l's to make historically accurate replicas. i've seen countless models of the hindenburg, ww 2 luftwaffe planes etc, with crosses that mean nothing located where the swastikas should be, namely on the tails of the model planes. i'm not talking about the crosses on the wings of the planes, these are contrived, phoney, made up crosses that bear no historical significance, just hysterical significance!! it's almost insulting from an intelligence point of view!! get a grip model maker companies!! if our aviation museums through out the u.s. take this sanitized view, then i won't be back to visit!! i'm sorry if i opened a can of worms, & i know this topic should have been presented in the wix model building category, but i wanted maximum exposure to this issue. your's in aviation history, tom

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

I think it is going to get worse after Prince William's stupid move with his nazi party outfit he recently wore, what an idiot..........it is a shame. I can understand to a certain extent, a company was making SS soldier action figures and were asked to pull them from stores because a holocaust survivor saw them in a store and got really upset. there's no need for SS stuff, so i can see that...but are we to just completely forget or change history? tough subject, and as a model builder and collector, i hear you!

brian

Hmmmnnn. An "Adults Only" section at the hobby store, or the
"Adults Only" issue of Scale Modeler, and there was talk years back
of making certain Mark Twain books "politically correct"...that's just
wrong!

I prefer my history "down and dirty", thank-you!

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He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

Tom, swastikas are not included in German, Italian and French kits. Buy Japanes, US or Canuck kits and you'll do just fine!

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Olivier Lacombe -- Harvard Mk.4 C-GBQB

The sad part of all of this is the symbol was a sign of peace and friendship long before Hitler's group came along. The American Indians (Navajo) used it a alot in there weaving's. History is history and it should not be altered. Example: WW2 Memorial has Rooevelts speech given to the American People on December 8, 1941 inscribed in bronze and has "so help us God" omitted from the inscription. That just burns me to know that our WW2 history has been altered to satisfy those Left Hand Liberial Bureaucrats in Washington. How about asking the rest of the American people what they think is correct! The Jewish people aren't against the symbol, just what it represented. I have personally given tours to large "Jewish Groups" visiting a Museum of WW2 aircraft displaying the Swastika and had know problem with them understanding, it was a part of History and it shouldn't be forgotten!! Ya', Leave it out of history and it will just go away! That's what the Japanese did to their History books. I can understand why it can't be displayed in Germany, but when History is forgotten it will repeat itself, so help us God!!!!!!

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John Lane, Jr.

No, Tom, I think this is actually the best place to have this thread. The removal of swastikas from aircraft models is only part of a much larger problem, as John Lane pointed out. Frankly, left unchecked, political correctness could very well have such an adverse influence that revisionism could become the status quo and not the exception.

When that does happen all of the sacrifices made by so many made during the world wars was all for nothing as it will only be remembered by those who seek the information out, it wont be out there for EVERYONE to learn from.

Want an example? I was on a website of a showcar which is painted up like a USAAF fighter plane, complete with swastika kill marks. At least half of the comments on the car's site left by visitors made reference to how much better the car would be if it didn't have those Nazi flags on it... They were so fixated on that one thing that they didn't even recognize that the whole car was a tribute to the pilots of the USAAF. My bet is not one of them ever asked the owner why theyw ere there or what they represented. They just assumed what they wanted because no one has taught them or allowed them to learn for themselves.

I was thankful that my daughter, who up until recently showed no interest in history at all, brought home a copy of the "Diary of Anne Frank" and started asking me about what happened and why. My explaination left nothing out and since then she has brought home other historical books. In fact it has brought the two of us closer together at a time when most kids her age want nothing to do with their parents.

I am at a total loss as to how historical facts could ever be "politically incorrect." Or how someone's subjective reasoning should be allowed to alter the facts in any way...

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Victory By Valor (Motto of the 20th Fighter Group)

locobuster & john, you are both on target!! i wear a repro a-2 flight jacket with art on the back & i have been approached numerous times due to the swastikas / japanese flags. i've had to explain i didn't support these hateful repulsive regimes of ww 2 those were just symbols of victory over the enemy. i even whipped out my ohio driver's license once to show my last name!! on the 1 hand i'm glad people care!! i enlighten them & give them knowledge. i think some of the european model companies better get an attitude adjustment & some back bone & start cranking out historically accurate kits. i know the swastika thing is banned in some countries & with ebay etc, but i'd bet if it were lifted most would agree it is for the historical accuracy & knowledge for future generations & not glorification of the worst thing about the 20th century. take care tom

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

I completely agree... I posted a similar rant when I saw the 262 from Seattle with no swastikas. That was so silly I just about started laughing...I know the first one is for Germany where it is outlawed on flying aircraft but it still cracked me up.

John

Hey guys:

This is why I'm glad to be an American, because we don't have to be politically correct (except at work). In places like China and N. Korea you do.

My pop told me that in England in the 70's to the early 80's swastikas were not allowed on airworthy aircraft. I guess the Brits. still had a bad bitterness for the nazis this long after WW2.

Also, remember reading an air classics magazine from 1976, and remember reading how the Smithsonian was very leary of letting the Germans rebuild their Do 335.

Chris

The topic is about sanitizing history and Waltz 41 seems to go right along with it, " there's no need for SS stuff, so i can see that".
What part of NOT changing history don't you get?

Should we stop making models of B-29's because a Hiroshima survivor went to Wal Mart and got upset?

Where does it end?

If you don't like what you see, look somewhere else, turn around, don't buy it, turn the station, etc!!!!!

Regards,
Mike

Mike, check my post again. What I was saying is i can see an argument against SS action figures. And yes, I completely agree with your statement on if you don't like it don't look, listen, etc, but no everyone else agrees.

I'm not saying to 'sanatize' history, all i'm saying is do we really need SS action figures? Maybe, maybe not. It's not my call. Would I be upset if they weren't out there....No. Would I be upset if they were,....No. But some people are. Don't take this the wrong way, but i'm all for having a 'correct' history, but things can be taken overboard. It's kind of like if there was a death camp action figure set or something.... I mean come on, do YOU think that's 'sanatizing' history because there isn't one????

brian

Well Brian:

It's kind of the same as having warbirds which glorify war. Maybe we shouldn't have warbirds?

Aircraft in many German Museums are now carrying Swastikas on appropriate aircraft, there was actually a sign inviting debate on whether they should be displayed or not at the Berlin DTM.
Regarding the SS, there were different branches, and whilst responsible for some horrific war crimes, especially the Allegmeine ( general ) SS, several of the Waffen (weapons) SS Divisions were argueably the best fighting outfits the world has ever seen and their tactics and camouflage techniques are still in use by NATO armies today..infact the Waffen SS could be considered the first ever NATO Army, there were divisions from France, Holland, Norway, Denmark, Belgium and even a company from Great Britain, but that is a whole other subject .

Dave

At the root of all this is a lack of decent education, plain and simple. In my high school World War I, II, Korea and Vietnam were covered (in the most general of terms) over a 3 week period. I was left to fend for myself beyond that.

Last year I looked at a High School World History textbook and was appalled by the fact the section on World War II was two pages in length and had a mere three photographs (Pearl Harbor, D-Day and the mushroom cloud over Hiroshima). That's all. Nothing more nothing less. Anyone else see any gaps there?

At this rate World War II, a conflict which involved nearly a third of the world's population at that time, will be nothing but a footnote by the time my daughter is my age...

Come on, do you think most American today even know what v-mail was? My bet is that most would reply that it's video e-mail...

Tom, I am glad you take the time to enlighten those who question you about your jacket and I hope everyone on this forum (and all similar forums) takes the time to do likewise. I have a buddy who hung a model of a P-38 above his newborn son's crib so that he would know what it was when he grew up and I am glad to see a little of my passion has been passed on to my daughter, those may be small victories but they are victories none the less!

Unless something is done there are going to be more poorly educated people assuming what they want and pushing for more sanitization based upon assumption and subjective thinking. That could continue until what really happened is so smothered in BS it will be nearly impossible to discern the facts.

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Victory By Valor (Motto of the 20th Fighter Group)

Good points, but that being said, there is actually a lot more accurate information available on WW2 now than there ever has been, with many of the archives, especially in the Eastern Bloc, now opening up to researchers. Books based on this new info and 'declassified' documents are now starting to appear, so if the is the 'will' for young people to find out more, the data is available.

Dave