From Horten Ho 229 becomes B2 Stealth Bomber?

Franklin · **Joined:** Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:53 pm **Posts:** 183

The Horten Ho 229 Jet. Supposedly (arguably) the first stealth design, first space type suit design. It was the first pure flying wing powered by a jet engine and designed to be more difficult to detect with radar — the first aircraft to incorporate what is now known as stealth technology. It was a personal favorite of German Luftwaffe Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, and was the only aircraft to come close to meeting his "3x1000" performance requirements, namely to carry 1000 kg of bombs a distance of 1000 km with a speed of 1000 km/h. Its ceiling 15,000 meters (49,213 ft). (Wikipedia)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP4Ucigr ... r_embedded

BTW do you think this video is animated? Or do you think it's real footage. (edit: the video below, not above) I could go either way. If this is indeed real footage why not more of it? I'll have to search some more to see if I can find additional footage. Looks interesting in flight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBnBSJ9b ... re=related

youtube video courtesy of Hase Heiner.

old iron · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 3:40 pm

Quote:

and designed to be more difficult to detect with radar

I think the Horton's motive in their design was a all-lifting surface without parasitic drag, rather than stealth. Those from the present looking backward emphasize the stealth qualities, but I think there was little time to develop or experiment with stealth technologies during the war itself. Stealth was a happy and fortuitous byproduct of a general design developed before there was any appreciation or knowledge of RADAR.

airnutz · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 3:44 pm

Ditto what OldIron said. Sounds like the History/Discovery Channel tartup strikes again.

Franklin · **Joined:** Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:53 pm **Posts:** 183

I would concur with oldiron as well. But I wonder if the allies (USA) did indeed flight test one.

During the final stages of the war, the U.S. military initiated Operation Paperclip, an effort by the various intelligence agencies to capture advanced German weapons research, and keep it out of the hands of advancing Soviet troops. A Horten glider and the Ho 229 V3, which was undergoing final assembly, were secured and sent to Northrop Corporation in the United States for evaluation. Northrop was chosen because of their experience with flying wings, inspired by the Horten brothers' pre-war record-setting glider. Jack Northrop had been building flying wings since the N-1M in 1939.

A Horten H.IV flying wing glider is in the Planes of Fame museum in Chino, California. (Really?) .. The only surviving Ho 229 airframe, the V3, is at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum's Paul E. Garber Restoration Facility in Suitland, Maryland. (Wikipedia)

famvburg · **Joined:** Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:41 am **Posts:** 540

IMO it's clearly animated, at least the first part. If it was designed from the outset as stealth, it wouldn't have those gaping intakes & exhausts.

Garth · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 8:24 pm

airnutz wrote:

(Really?) .. The only surviving Ho 229 airframe, the V3, is at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum's Paul E. Garber Restoration Facility in Suitland, Maryland. (Wikipedia)

Nope, NASM moved it to Udvar-Hazy several weeks ago.

:wink:

SaxMan · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 9:53 pm

It's a bit of a stretch tying the Ho 229 to the B-2. A more appropriate lineage would be via the Northrop family of flying wings, from the N-9, YB-35 and YB-49. Stealth wasn't the goal of the wing, it was speed and carrying capacity for its size. It took modern avionics (i.e. fly by wire systems) to make the flying wing practical. At least Jack Northrop knew before he died that his flying wing concept had been vindicated. He may have not lived to see the B-2 fly, but he knew they were developing it.

Jerry O'Neill · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 10:46 pm

Video of the flying wings is all animated.
Jerry

whistlingdeath77 · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 5:14 am

interesting

Fouga23 · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 5:22 am

The attack on the P-51 in the first movie is animated. The small second movie is real IMHO.

old iron · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 8:51 am

The Ho.229 was never flown by the United States. I seriously doubt that a camera plane would have flown that close in German tests of the V2 prototype, which crashed after, if I remember right, three flights and 45 total minutes of air time. The video must be a fake, presumably using a model.

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 10:15 am

old iron wrote:

Quote:

and designed to be more difficult to detect with radar

I think the Horton's motive in their design was a all-lifting surface without parasitic drag, rather than stealth. Those from the present looking backward emphasize the stealth qualities, but I think there was little time to develop or experiment with stealth technologies during the war itself. Stealth was a happy and fortuitous byproduct of a general design developed before there was any appreciation or knowledge of RADAR.

I'm sorry, but did you watch the show? If not, then I suggest you do so before making statements like that, because your statement shows that you're reading the title of the thread and the title of the documentary and making assumptions. If you actually watch the show, you'll find that it's actually well done, and that Northrop and the production team did a good job of emphasizing that they didn't think that stealth was the primary reason, but that it was one of the reasons.

Also, they make it clear that, at the time, it was believed stealthiness of an aircraft had more to do with how an aircraft was painted and what materials it used than its shape. They didn't fully understand how things like intakes and cockpits contribute to RCS, and thus didn't take measures to mitigate them like has been done with modern stealth and stealthy aircraft. However, I think the final conclusions were correct - the Ho-229 did what it was supposed to. It fulfilled the 3x1000 requirements and its 20% reduction in RCS was sufficient to make the aircraft nearly impossible to intercept which would have been the death of the Chain Home radar system had enough been built since the thing Goering wanted most to use them for was to destroy the radars which he blamed for costing the Luftwaffe the Battle of Britain.

Franklin · **Joined:** Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:53 pm **Posts:** 183

old iron wrote:

The video must be a fake, presumably using a model.

I agree the second video is a fake, but a very good one indeed. And yes I watched the show as well and I'll agree that it was well done. As for the emphasis on the design having stealth as a primary reason, I don't think so, but I do think the designers did have low radar detection in mind. I believe the 3X1000 requirements were the primary goal. Would I state the designers stumbled onto a stealthy design? No I think radar detection was on their minds in the design process, but I'm not sure stealth was the primary goal. Just IMHO ....

Quote:

Nope, NASM moved it to Udvar-Hazy several weeks ago.

... Restore and display it? Seems so

BTW very good stuff here for those interested ...

http://www.greyfalcon.us/The%20Horten%20Ho%20229.htm

airnutz · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 3:48 pm

CAPFlyer wrote:

old iron wrote:

Quote:

and designed to be more difficult to detect with radar

I think the Horton's motive in their design was a all-lifting surface without parasitic drag, rather than stealth. Those from the present looking backward emphasize the stealth qualities, but I think there was little time to develop or experiment with stealth technologies during the war itself. Stealth was a happy and fortuitous byproduct of a general design developed before there was any appreciation or knowledge of RADAR.

I'm sorry, but did you watch the show? If not, then I suggest you do so before making statements like that, because your statement shows that you're reading the title of the thread and the title of the documentary and making assumptions. If you actually watch the show, you'll find that it's actually well done, and that Northrop and the production team did a good job of emphasizing that they didn't think that stealth was the primary reason, but that it was one of the reasons.

Also, they make it clear that, at the time, it was believed stealthiness of an aircraft had more to do with how an aircraft was painted and what materials it used than its shape. They didn't fully understand how things like intakes and cockpits contribute to RCS, and thus didn't take measures to mitigate them like has been done with modern stealth and stealthy aircraft. However, I think the final conclusions were correct - the Ho-229 did what it was supposed to. It fulfilled the 3x1000 requirements and its 20% reduction in RCS was sufficient to make the aircraft nearly impossible to intercept which would have been the death of the Chain Home radar system had enough been built since the thing Goering wanted most to use them for was to destroy the radars which he blamed for costing the Luftwaffe the Battle of Britain.

I stand corrected! It's been a few years since I'd seen the program and I obviously missed or forgot the infusing of carbon into the paint and/or other media into some of the laminates with stealth in mind. As you say, enough would have to be built to knock out Chain Mail but for how long before countermeasures could be enacted? Really too little too late, but it is apparent Horten had ideas toward reduced radar detection.

airnutz · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 3:53 pm

Franklin, note spelling Horten with an "e". Good thread! :wink:

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