General Ramey's Lost B-17 (Pluto) found.

[Shay]

Sorry if a repost:

Found here: http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Find-solves-WWII-mystery-says-filmmaker/2007/02/22/1171733937899.html

Find solves WWII mystery, says filmmaker

Former shark hunter-turned cinematographer Ben Cropp says he's found wreckage of a plane carrying an American general which disappeared on a flight from Papua New Guinea to Brisbane in World War II.

US Army Air Force Brigadier General Howard K Ramey and nine other men were aboard a B-17 Flying Fortress bomber, nicknamed the Pluto, which went down without a trace in a storm off far northern Australia on March 26, 1943.

General Ramey had been preparing to take charge of the US Army Air Force's 5th Bomber Command in Papua New Guinea when he died.

Mr Cropp, 71, said he had found a wing with two engines in 2005 in a remote area 55km south of Albany Passage and 74km south of Cape York.

But experts had been unable to determine whether the wreckage was General Ramey's B-17 Flying Fortress or a B-24 Liberator named the Punjab.

"Because no-one could identify it from my film and photos, we went back there and this time I was armed with all the knowledge of how to identify a plane," Mr Cropp said.

"The tyre and landing gear was up inside behind the engine, showing that was a B-17," he said.

"If it was a B-24, it (the landing gear) would have been up under the wing."

After flipping the engine over to examine it further, he also found the round-shaped cowling and nine cylinders belonging to a B-17.

"The only B-17 which was lost in that area was the Pluto carrying the American general," Mr Cropp said.

"While I don't have 100 per cent (surety), I have 99 per cent," he said.

The wreckage was resting on the edge of a coral reef in five metres of water and the propellers were turned inwards, indicating the engines were stopped at the time and the plane may have been forced to ditch at sea.

Mr Cropp said the plane had been due to stop at Horn Island in Torres Strait, but the pilot may have lost his way in the storm and been unable to land and refuel.

The severe impact on the reef tore the wing not just off the plane, but right through the fuselage.

The fuselage containing the bodies of the dead men was not part of the wreckage, and therefore not a war grave, but still helped to solve one of World War II's longest-running mysteries, he said.

"It's one of them because no-one ever knew where the plane was."

"It was really a chance discovery and I'm yet to find the rest of it and that is proving to be very difficult.

"With so much coral reef around, it's very difficult to get in among the reefs and get an outline."

In San Antonio, Texas, General Ramey's daughter Margaret Ramey Watkins said an end to the mystery would mean a lot to her family.

"It's been an awful long time since 1943," Mrs Watkins told The Cairns Post.

"(Finding the aircraft) would really make us happy, just so we could have closure."

I hope they bring them home.


Also:

The fuselage containing the bodies of the dead men was not part of the wreckage, and therefore not a war grave

I have to wonder why Mr. Cropp felt it necessary to say that? I sure hope they weren't taking things from the wreck especially if it is related to a crash with unaccounted for war dead.


Shay
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Semper Fortis

[daveymac82c]

Hey Shay,

I agree, it is very weird that he would have put that quote in about it "not being a war grave." That totally makes it sound like they were covering their butts; as if they stole things from the site as little momentos.

I'm interested to see if they ever find more of the airplane.

-David

[JDK]

I hope they bring them home.


Also:

The fuselage containing the bodies of the dead men was not part of the wreckage, and therefore not a war grave

I have to wonder why Mr. Cropp felt it necessary to say that? I sure hope they weren't taking things from the wreck especially if it is related to a crash with unaccounted for war dead.

I'd accept that the article isn't completely clear, but as I read it, Ben Cropp found a wing, torn from the aircraft, and no other wreckage (at this stage) such as the bodies or the fuselage. Given the way a reef works, there may be nothing more to find.

A little Googling will show that far from being a treasure hunter likely to souvenir items, he is a member of the Order of Australia who found the wreck of HMS Pandora - heard of HMS Bounty with a mutiny? Pandora is one of the ships that went after the mutineers... That search (also on the web) gives an indication of his methods.

The suspicious remarks above are little thanks for a search that's clearly been a mystery solving rather than a profit-driven exercise. The fact that the General's family were informed might indicate the intent.

Let's not be quite so quick to judge, perhaps, and give thanks for work done.

[Shay]

James

I'm not passing judgement over Mr. Cropp. I sincerly hope that he's is honorable in his intentions.

That being said, I only mentioned that I found his choice of words interesting. Almost as a caveat to anyone who might ask him questions about something he has done regarding this wreck. Now he might not have taken anything from the wrecK but if he has I hope it was minor and strictly for the purpose of investigating the identity of the aircraft and not for a personal trinket. Because regardless if the accident happen 60 years ago or 1 year ago it's still an accident with potential loss of life and should be investigated by the authorities. And taking material from the wreck may only hamper any effort to discover what happen to the aircraft. I think Mr. Cropp's first move should have been to notify the Austrailian authorities as well as notifying JPAC. Which he very well may have done but there is no mention of it in the article. So at this point I have to assume he hasn't until I read otherwise. All I know at this point is that he is a Shark hunter turned filmmaker who discovered a peice of B-17 2 years ago who is going alone on it to discover the identity of the aicraft, but has gone to press on it without any substantial evidence. It is possible that this is indeed Gen. Ramey's aicraft or it simply could be some unaccounted for B-17 that got lost out of the thousands that were made. Records are not infallable, a good case and point is U-869. There is always room for inaccuracies when it comes to the records. I sincerly hope that he does find General Ramey's aircraft and helps to bring the service members home. But to go out publicly and say "I found a portion of a B-17 wing and I'm 99% sure it's the aircraft of the long lost General and his crew" is being a bit naive if not a little premature.

I also think giving "thanks" at this point is a little premature. All he has found is a wing nothing more. Heck, until this most recent dive he admittedly didn't know what type of aircraft the wing belonged to. I think it was equally premature to notify the family without knowing within a shadow of a doubt that this is the General's aircraft. It may pan out and I certainly hope it does, but it is possibly setting the familiy up for more heartache by reopenning this old wound.

Going back to my statement "I sure hope they weren't taking things from the wreck" it's not ouside the realm of possiblities that, no matter how great one's credentials may be, someone would want to retrieve a momento. Do you honestly believe that somewhere within the confines of his personal collection of property that there isn't some momento of his discovery of, and subsiquint dives on the HMS Pandora, unquestionably his most important dive to date? Not to mention he has a "Shipwreck" Museum in Cairns which I have to imagine has recovered artifacts on display. So I think I'm not too far off the mark by asking if he has taken anything from the aircraft.

Most likely his heart is in the right place and again I hope this pans out. I only wish a little restraint had been exercised before proclaiming to the world that the mystery had been solved. Especially when the Serial No. hasn't been found nor have any remains been recovered. It only serves to make him look like he's out seeking glory and publicity.

Shay
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Semper Fortis

[rwdfresno]

I often think it is interesting that people get so emotional over a historic aircraft wreck however when an aircraft crashes these days it isn't uncommon for a salvage company to salvage the aircraft after the bodies are recovered. Also when someone dies in a car accident the car is hauled off to an insurance adjusters lot until everything is sorted out then they just crush the car and melt it down and build something else out of it.

[Shay]

I often think it is interesting that people get so emotional over a historic aircraft wreck however when an aircraft crashes these days it isn't uncommon for a salvage company to salvage the aircraft after the bodies are recovered. Also when someone dies in a car accident the car is hauled off to an insurance adjusters lot until everything is sorted out then they just crush the car and melt it down and build something else out of it.

I'm curious about your comments. What point were you trying to make? Who is talking about "Salvaging"?

Shay
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Semper Fortis

[rwdfresno]

My comments are that I find it interesting that people are disturbed when someone pulls even the smallest of parts from a historic aircraft site that includes a death however people die daily in car crashes and the cars are simply crushed like any other car, and when a Cessna goes down in the hills these days after the bodies are pulled out they frequently have a salvager come pull out the aircraft and do basically whatever they please with the aircraft and you usually don't hear much about either of those.

[groundpounder]

i think that what hes getting at is that maybe the emotion of the loss of life shouldnt get in the way of discovering the historical facts. how do you feel about what happened with the titanic? if it wasnt for dr. ballard getting his nose dirty we wouldnt know what we know today. just because someone has the gumption to get out there and research this wreck doesnt make him a grave robber. if the plane was found on land would you feel any different about it? how many fatal warbird wrecks have you been interested in over the years? i think this fellow should be commended for his effort and not raked over the coral so quickly. sim.

[Shay]

You see it's not just one person taking the smallest piece. Over time it's a lot of people taking the smallest pieces. Until you end up with just a shell

Besides, my point of view wasn't that it shouldn't be salvaged. I'm looking at it from the point of view of analyzing the wreck to determine where the crew might be and also to determine what the cause of the crash was if possible. Right now they've only got a wing....where's the rest of the Fortress? What if, for example, they raised the wing and ascertained that the wing departed the aircraft in-flight at a given altitude range. Then they would be able to estimate a search area. Get my point? The wreck might hold clues as to where the crew may be. Not that it shouldn't salvaged. If they examine the wing and get all the information they can then yeah do with it what you will. I hope they are able to find the the rest of wreckage and recover the bodies after that again do with it what you will.

I'm not one these PNG leave the plane where they are because it's our heritage or they are memorials, type of people. Pull them out and give our boys a proper burial and ceremony. The CSS Hunely that sank with all hands. I had no problem with them bringing the ship up even though it was considered a "War Grave". They salvaged the ship and on 17 April 2004 the remains of the crew of the H. L. Hunley were interred in Charleston's Magnolia Cemetery with full military honors. A crowd estimated at between 35,000 and 50,000, including 10,000 period military and civilian reenactors, were present for what some called the 'Last Confederate Funeral.' And after the fact the Hunley is or will soon be on display for others visit and reflect upon those that gave their lives for what they believed in. Being a Navy man I have different view than Mother Navy does. Mother Navy says the that once a ship goes down then the crew are considered burried at sea and that is that. It wouldn't bother me to see any of the recently discovered WW2 US submarines raised as long as the crew were given a proper burrial with full military honors. What they do with the sub is up to the slavagers. I would hope they would turn it into a solemn momument or it would go to a museum but that's not my decision. Atleast the families who lost their loved ones would have some closure.

It's not about the machines, it's about the people that died in them

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

[rwdfresno]

You see it's not just one person taking the smallest piece. Over time it's a lot of people taking the smallest pieces. Until you end up with just a shell

In my opinion this is a symptom of not letting the an aircraft be salvaged. If and when the items are discovered someone is allowed to salvage the find, then it won't be picked apart or hacked apart for years to come leaving basically nothing but a pile of twisted aluminum. Most likely there isn't anything monetarily worth salvaging on this wing, if it is like the rest of the salt water finds it is a pile of corrosion. The only real value is historical record.

I'm looking at it from the point of view of analyzing the wreck to determine where the crew might be and also to determine what the cause of the crash was if possible. Right now they've only got a wing....where's the rest of the Fortress? What if, for example, they raised the wing and ascertained that the wing departed the aircraft in-flight at a given altitude range.

I highly doubt that they would be able to tell much about the altitude the aircraft was flying by looking at the wing. Really the only thing they could possibly figure out was the position and bending of the props, possibly some impact damage to tell you if the wing was attached when it hit the water, if the props were spinning or not etc. It probably isn't going to be able to reveal anything about where the rest of the aircraft is other than the wing gives them a place to start looking.

I'm not one these PNG leave the plane where they are because it's our heritage or they are memorials, type of people. Pull them out and give our boys a proper burial and ceremony.

I am not suggesting that you are.

I can understand why the Navy says that a sunken ship is a war grave. The reasoning is mainly because the average ship is so large that savaging the whole ship is not a likely scenario. Asking divers to stay out of such graves makes sense to me because I don't think that having everyone and their uncle disturbing the final burial site of people is a good idea. In the case that something like a submarine or aircraft, or anything else that would more easily be salvaged I think as long as care is taken to properly handle and return the remains it should be allowed. In the case of a part of an aircraft or ship (such as a wing fro ma B-17) that has no remains as that part of the wreck I think that should pretty much be whomever finds it and wants to spend the money should get it.

My main point really is that people tend to put have special emotions tied to these sorts of wrecks and don't think twice about going to a museum and seeing a mummy or Egyptian sarcophagus which to me is pretty morbid.