IFO of the week- WWII Mark 18 Gun Sight Harness
Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:56 pm
The Mk 18 was used on the Martin 250, the F4U Corsair, and others which I am not sure of. I picked these up as removed surplus over 50 years ago, some with Martin 250 attachment pieces on them. Neat!
First image is of the gun sight, and the rest of the photos are of the components, which are rarer than the gunsight!
First image is of the gun sight, and the rest of the photos are of the components, which are rarer than the gunsight!
Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:16 am
Any picture of the range dial ?
Paul
Paul
Range Unit
Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:31 pm
I'll try to get a closeup of the range unit. If you need one of these, I have separate ones available.
IFO of the week
Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:41 pm
I am starting a restoration of a martin 250CE-3 turret (B-24). Which Martin 250 does this fit.
Steve
Steve
Mark 18 Gunsight Applications
Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:11 pm
I'll look closer at the fittings that are still attached to some of these harnesses. I noted that they said 250, and they may have been for the 250 CE or SH units (hydraulic units on the Martin Mariner) but am not sure. Where are you located, and do you need one of these? I do have a few sparse 250 CE parts, and some REAL neat photos of them in use and in production- they were built here in Baltimore and the plant where they were built is still standing (it is NOT at Martin Field).
Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:23 pm
The reason I'm interested in a picture from the gunsight's range dial is that we found parts of a MK18 from a crashed 55th FG Mustang...
Paul
Paul
Range Dial
Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:16 pm
I'll get a better photo of one, but caution- this was a system for a turret, and may have been slightly different from a fighter aircraft's setup. The sight may have been a K14 on the P51, which was basically made from the K17/Mark 18 series of sights (I am not the most educated when it comes to gunsights, although I have a Mark 18, K10, K11, K13, K14, K17 and N6 in my collection).
Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:32 am
My second most favorite topic, gunsights! 
Paul, if your range dial came from a P-51 crash, it's going to be from a K-14 gunsight, definitely not a Mk.18! Shoot me an e-mail if you want to see one, I'll send ya a pic of a K-14 & Mk.18 side by side.
The range units as pictured above w/ John's rig were not used on the K-14. Both the K-14 & Mk. 18 had a range dial, which was located on the left side of the gunsight. Only the Mk.18 had the range unit, which I'm really not sure why it was even there in the first place.
Basically, the "ranging" for both these gunsights was accomplished by means of a cable attached to the range dial on the side of the gunsight. On the K-14, there was a twist grip attached to the throttle, twisting it in one direction would increase the "range" (or size of the reticle), and twisting it the other way would of course decrease the range. On the Mk.18, this was done by foot pedals.
So I really don't see why a range unit was needed at all, but it obviously served some function, as it was fed into the junction box. I have some pictures of a Mk.18 installed in the Martin upper, and it clearly shows the pulleys & such necessary to route the range cable to the gunsight. Plus, I have a drawing of the complete rig, and it too shows the range cable routed to the gunsight (and the range unit, as the cable is looped around it as well.) Perhaps it was just a redundant component?
Paul, if your range dial came from a P-51 crash, it's going to be from a K-14 gunsight, definitely not a Mk.18! Shoot me an e-mail if you want to see one, I'll send ya a pic of a K-14 & Mk.18 side by side.
The range units as pictured above w/ John's rig were not used on the K-14. Both the K-14 & Mk. 18 had a range dial, which was located on the left side of the gunsight. Only the Mk.18 had the range unit, which I'm really not sure why it was even there in the first place.
Basically, the "ranging" for both these gunsights was accomplished by means of a cable attached to the range dial on the side of the gunsight. On the K-14, there was a twist grip attached to the throttle, twisting it in one direction would increase the "range" (or size of the reticle), and twisting it the other way would of course decrease the range. On the Mk.18, this was done by foot pedals.
So I really don't see why a range unit was needed at all, but it obviously served some function, as it was fed into the junction box. I have some pictures of a Mk.18 installed in the Martin upper, and it clearly shows the pulleys & such necessary to route the range cable to the gunsight. Plus, I have a drawing of the complete rig, and it too shows the range cable routed to the gunsight (and the range unit, as the cable is looped around it as well.) Perhaps it was just a redundant component?
Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:22 am
B29Gunner,
We found the Eastman Kodak MK18 Junction Box Unit too, same as on the picture ! Still waiting for Martin from Switzerland to join us on this subject !!
Paul
We found the Eastman Kodak MK18 Junction Box Unit too, same as on the picture ! Still waiting for Martin from Switzerland to join us on this subject !!
Paul
Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:34 am
TaDa !
here I am !
I am still trying to get some order into this MK10, K-14, K-17, MK18 and MK21 issue.
I saw the same photos as above (plus some more) on various ebay auctions (is that you, Forgotten Field ?) and have saved them on my HDD.
The thing is that there are many variants and modifications to this group of gyro gunsights.
Many of the Swiss AF P-51D's that were purchased from USAAF surplus stocks in 1948 arrived with MK21 gunsights. Two interned examples (1944 & 1945) were equipped with MK18's.
Later the Swiss AF officially used the K-14B, but from photos I can say that many K-14A's were brought to K-14B 'standard'.
Paul, I am currently working on a 'guide' to these gyro gunsights as basis for my book-project, and generally as recognition aid.
I will mail you separately.
Groeten
Martin / Swiss Mustangs
here I am !
I am still trying to get some order into this MK10, K-14, K-17, MK18 and MK21 issue.
I saw the same photos as above (plus some more) on various ebay auctions (is that you, Forgotten Field ?) and have saved them on my HDD.
The thing is that there are many variants and modifications to this group of gyro gunsights.
Many of the Swiss AF P-51D's that were purchased from USAAF surplus stocks in 1948 arrived with MK21 gunsights. Two interned examples (1944 & 1945) were equipped with MK18's.
Later the Swiss AF officially used the K-14B, but from photos I can say that many K-14A's were brought to K-14B 'standard'.
Paul, I am currently working on a 'guide' to these gyro gunsights as basis for my book-project, and generally as recognition aid.
I will mail you separately.
Groeten
Martin / Swiss Mustangs
Junction Box specifics
Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:46 am
I have a K14 which is remanufactured from a K17. I would guess that since the Mk 18 and the K17 are the same animal, they COULD have used a Mk 18 to convert to a K14, and also could have used a set of MK 18 junction boxes, etc, to use as a front line aircraft. I have seen this phenomenon before with military equipment- items which were acquired through USN contracts for USAAF applications and vice versa. Maybe that is what you have. Also, the K14 I have which was re-configured was not re-badged as a K14- it still had K17 data plates on it.
Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:27 am
Hey Martin,
Great to see you ! Looking forward to get your message !
Groetjes,
Paul
Great to see you ! Looking forward to get your message !
Groetjes,
Paul
Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:17 am
Paul & Martin -- This is very, VERY interesting! Just goes to show the beauty of WIX!
Do you guys have any photos of a Mk. 18 or 21 installed in a P-51? Or even better, a TO on the subject? I would be extremely interested in learning more about these particular sights that it now seems were installed the P-51!
Martin it might be of interest to you, but I found this passage in my K-14A manual:
"This equipment should not be confused with some of the installations in use which have been given the designation "K-14" by the Army Air Forces. The K-14 installations were made by using "Navy Mark-21 Gunsight" kits which differ considerably from the equipment described in this handbook, and care must be exercised to avoid confusion when referring to the different types of equipment. All references in this handbook will be made to the Army K-14A and Navy Mark 23 except where otherwise indicated. The Army K-14A is manufactured by the AC spark plug division of General Motors Corporation, manufacturer's drawing number 5581558. The Navy Mark 23 is included only because of its similarity to the K-14A."
The plot thickens!
This is a good discussion guys, we should talk about the S-8 next!
Do you guys have any photos of a Mk. 18 or 21 installed in a P-51? Or even better, a TO on the subject? I would be extremely interested in learning more about these particular sights that it now seems were installed the P-51!
Martin it might be of interest to you, but I found this passage in my K-14A manual:
"This equipment should not be confused with some of the installations in use which have been given the designation "K-14" by the Army Air Forces. The K-14 installations were made by using "Navy Mark-21 Gunsight" kits which differ considerably from the equipment described in this handbook, and care must be exercised to avoid confusion when referring to the different types of equipment. All references in this handbook will be made to the Army K-14A and Navy Mark 23 except where otherwise indicated. The Army K-14A is manufactured by the AC spark plug division of General Motors Corporation, manufacturer's drawing number 5581558. The Navy Mark 23 is included only because of its similarity to the K-14A."
The plot thickens!
This is a good discussion guys, we should talk about the S-8 next!
Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:24 am
Swiss Mustangs wrote:Later the Swiss AF officially used the K-14B, but from photos I can say that many K-14A's were brought to K-14B 'standard'.
Martin I forgot to mention w/ regards to the above-- one of my K-14s started off as an A model, and sometime later was re-stamped w/ a C model designation.
Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:23 am
@ B29Gunner
Now this is great information re. the 'K-14' aka MK21 note in the manual.
Thanks a bunch.
I will post some photos of the MK18 in the P-51B on Monday - currently am on a dial-up connection....
Also somewhere in one of my 'pending' piles, there's a copy of a MK18 manual....
I have a photo of a MK23 and it definitely looks different than the K-14A.
Sorry folks, be patient - Monday will be picture day....
So long
Martin / Swiss Mustangs
Now this is great information re. the 'K-14' aka MK21 note in the manual.
Thanks a bunch.
I will post some photos of the MK18 in the P-51B on Monday - currently am on a dial-up connection....
Also somewhere in one of my 'pending' piles, there's a copy of a MK18 manual....
I have a photo of a MK23 and it definitely looks different than the K-14A.
Sorry folks, be patient - Monday will be picture day....
So long
Martin / Swiss Mustangs