"Swoose" vs "the Memphis Belle"

[jmkendall]

I was just reading my copy of "The final Cut", for the thousanth time, and a thought came to mind.

If the NMUSAF can take the "Memphis Belle", because it is the heir to the WAA, then they still retain title to the "Swoose" ( and the Gas Station bomber as well).

We can argue about the merits of the restoration that the good people of Memphis were performing on THIER bomber. But; what is beyond question is that there were many good intentioned people trying real hard to get her undercover and restored.

Why then was the NMUSAF so hot to get the Belle? Was it because she was a combat vet? Well, they already had one 22 mission B-17, right? Was it because she was the most historic B-17 left in existance? No, the Swoose is the only surviving "shark fin" fort. As well as the only survivor of Clark field; and the only surviving combat aircraft that was on duty the day Pearl Harbor was bombed; and was still on duty on VJ day. Was it because the Belle was not being restored to their standards? Well, at least the people of Memphis were TRYING to do the right thing with the Belle. And; the Swoose was NOT being restored at all.

I suspect the real answer is that the "Belle" is "Sexy". Having starred in her own "Movie", and having been portrayed by another a/c in a remake of the first documentary, she is the only recognizable "movie star" B-17 ( with much apologies to N17W).

I would dearly love to know just how many missions the "Swoose" actually flew. Though I don't know if you would count the missions flown by just her "official" tail number, or; if you would have to include all the missions flown by BOTH halves of her!

I suspect that, even though her actual combat time was limited, she flew more combat missions than the "Belle". After all she was engaged in a life or death struggle. Fighting a desperate rear guard action. The type of action where you flew, landed, rearmed, refueled and flew again

Maybe I'm wrong, and she only flew a couple of missions. Somehow I dont' think so.

Don't miss-understand me, the "Belle" is well deserving of restoration. But; I think it is a NATIONAL DISGRACE that the "Swoose" is not even being slated for reassembly and display until her turn comes up for restoration......in July of 2234.

That and the NMUSAF is spending so much time and money on a later model Fort, when they already have a later model combat Fort on display. Why don't they, instead, reclaim and restore the MOST HISTORIC, and unique, Fort in existance, and what is surely one of the top 5 most historic surviving, American,WW2 aircraft.

Sorry about the rant, but; this is a subject that is near and dear to my heart and something I have felt strongly about since I was a young boy.

[David_Aiken]

"...the only surviving combat aircraft that was on duty the day Pearl Harbor was bombed; and was still on duty on VJ day..."

May we include VJ-1's 1-J-1 JRS for which actions on 7 Dec 1941 the pilot received a Navy Cross and still is in storage at Silver Hill.

Of interest, my former neighbor was Conrad Marvel, 19th BG mechanic. He flew out of the Philippines on the SWOOSE. He gave me a copy of the 19th BG mission diary for Dec 41 to April 1942.

I would have to do some digging...but John Mitchell's book may have a quicker answer...check what John and I did in the back of the book: "In Alis Vicimus: On Wings We Conquer," by John H. Mitchell, which is one of the few books about the 19th BG, the planes, the crews, and what happened to them during those first nightmarish days of World War II in the Philippines.

HTH,
Cheers,
David

[mustangdriver]

Well, the Belle was given to the NMUSAF by the mayor of Memphis making it ours to move, where the Swoose belongs to the NASM. I believe the USAF donated the plane to them, giving NASM ownership. Is it a complete disgrace that the Swoose is not being restored? You bet. THat is where my distaste comes from. This whole, "We need a new restoration shop before the swoose and flack bait can be restored." It is not true. How did they restore the B-29 Enola gay, if they didn't have room. The Belle is in the best place for it. Let's face it. The Memphis Belle is the most famous B-17 ever. The big push to take the Belle is because if someone didn't soon, then there wasn't going to be any Belle left. I see it first hand. The plane was in terrible shape.

[jmkendall]

Sorry about that. Did not realize that a/c was still in existance.

I was aware of a number of a/c that were at Pearl when she was bombed that are still in existance, however; to my knowledge none of them flew continuously throughout the entire war.

What is the JRS' record? Now that you mention it, I do remember something in an old Pearl Harbour Survivor publication ( My Grandfather was in charge of the Boat House on Ford Island, and spent the entire attack fishing Sailors and Marines out of the water. According to the documentation for his award, he had three boats shot out from underneagth him!)


I also know of an SBD that was there ( Enterprise) and at Midway, but; ended up on the bottom of one of the Great Lakes before the war was over. And; it seems that a P-40 or two might have been resurected from wreckage. Swamp Ghost was not accepted by the Army till DEC 8th, and even then didn't fly the whole war. I'm sure there is probably a Wildcat somewhere off of Wake. The point is that all of these only served for a limited time in the war, and not for the duration.

And; heck I probably let my passions get the better of me. Because I
can add the "Strawberry Bitch" to the list ( maybe, not sure of when she was constructed and not sure if she actually served the entire war, or sat it out in a depot or as a War Bond display).

So; we have two and maybe three aircraft with a combat history that fit the bill. With the possiblity of the ever present rumour of a Doolittle B-25 in Russia ( this can actually be a whole nother thread!)

There are other aircraft that were in existance on Dec 7th and are in existance now, but; most of them were transports or Scouts or trainers.

[mustangdriver]

Strawberry Bitch is indeed a war veteran.

[Matt Gunsch]

Our TBM flew 11 missions off the USS Yorktown, flying with VT-88. It also took part in POW supply flights and the surrender cerimonies over Tokyo Bay.
So I guess you could say it had a combat history, it also was used in a certain presidents campain and was towed down a very famous avenue in Washington DC.

[David_Aiken]

The JRS flown on 7 Dec was s/n 4346 BuNo 1063 1-J-1....

AAHS Journal Fall 1981 has cover article on "The Sikorsky S-43" by Mauno Salo...stricken 31 Aug 1944, surplus 12 Jan 45 to DPC 20 Apr 45, withdrawn by USN 10 Mar 47...Stored Silver Hill.

So this is NOT a candidate for a Pearl Harbor vet serving thru WWII...and yes, the other three planes on Oahu that survive are: P-40B which was in a hangar on 7 Dec and crashed Feb 1942...now flying; and two civilian trainers. Flight Journal, May 2007, "Ghosts of Pearl Harbor", details much more.

[Mark_Pilkington]

.

I am not sure Swoose Goose flew many "combat" missions, I understood it escaped from the Philipines to Australia and then became a VIP transport aircraft, so I am not sure it flew "any" let alone "many" combat missions as a bomber?

Having said that it is a rare and historically important aircraft, but so is Memphis Belle, and for that matter Swamp Ghost.

Rather than arguing what should be rolling down the restoration and display pipeline of any particular museum, and in what order of importance, and what urgency to meet our desires to view them, we should be ensuring they are preserved for future generations.

If that means long term undercover storage until their "time comes" in the restoration shop - so be it?

I would have thought the most important issue is how many of these historic aircraft can be preserved, and from my point of view - the more the better, - from the museum curators and operators point of view they have costs and resources to manage, its a balancing act we have to leave to them.

We also need to recognise these aircraft are all hopefully being preserved for 200+ years and will then fall into a re-"restoring" workload of some level.

The fact that some are still in storage and unrestored should be measured against the issue that at least they still survive and are undercover and protected.

Our National Museum in Australia scrapped a combat veteran Beaufort and rare Japanese Sally as well as sold off its Japanese Oscar in the 1950s, as it didnt have the space to display them, and was focussing on displaying the "real war" in Europe, a sad day for heritage preservation.


Regards

Mark Pilkington

[mustangdriver]

I agree with you Mark, but what good is it, if no one can see it. Swoose has been in storage for over 60 years now. It is time to dust her off, restore her, and put her on display.

[aerovin]

Just to clarify:

The city of Memphis never "owned" the Memphis Belle. It was transferred to the city by the government's disposal agency, the Reconstruction Finance Corp. (RFC) in 1946 after being released by the AAF for disposal. Title was retained by the U.S. government, and the city would never have been able to sell or transfer the airplane unless the government forgot that it actually owned it.

The "Swoose" was a combat airplane from December 8, 1941, to January 11, 1942. Its combat record is well documented in several books. The AAF released the airplane for disposal in December 1945. It was transferred by the RFC to the city of Los Angeles in 1946. Again, the U.S. government always retained title. When Los Angeles couldn't figure out what to do with the airplane, the airplane was transferred in 1949 to the National Air Museum.

Possession may be nine tenths of the law, but that other little tenth can be a bugger.

[k5083]

National disgrace! I agree! It is a national disgrace when a museum that gets MY TAX DOLLARS doesn't put the artifacts that satisfy MY PERSONAL FETISH on the fast track restoration queue so that I don't have to wait A MINUTE LONGER than necessary to see it!!

Sheesh, folks. Get over it. The NASM is arguably the best airplane museum in the world and it is doing what it can with what it has. Not everyone agrees with your priorities as to what should be restored when.

August

[mustangdriver]

K5083, I would agree with you if the aircraft had not been there since the end of WWII. I think the NASM is a great museum(not the best).

[Rogue]

I'd rather see it un-restored than not at all.

I hope I live long enough to see it, restored or not.

[mustangdriver]

National disgrace! I agree! It is a national disgrace when a museum that gets MY TAX DOLLARS doesn't put the artifacts that satisfy MY PERSONAL FETISH on the fast track restoration queue so that I don't have to wait A MINUTE LONGER than necessary to see it!!

Sheesh, folks. Get over it. The NASM is arguably the best airplane museum in the world and it is doing what it can with what it has. Not everyone agrees with your priorities as to what should be restored when.

August

And by the way that first paragraph must be your thoughts, because I said nothing of the sort. That wolddn't be you putting words in my mouth again would it?

[drgondog]

Mustangdriver - it is splitting hairs but I think the Swoose was flown into Andrews AFB in 1953 and lay there along with the Enola Gay, an unidentified P-61 and a strange 2 engine jet bomber that looked like a Marauder (XB-43?)

It flew at least 18 combat missions and was in the flight with Colin Kelley. It was christened the Swoose after being reutired from Combat Ops, came back to the states in 1942, hacked around ZI and Central/S. America for rest of war, decommissioned in Jan 1946.

One of the long time WWII pilots of the Swoose - Frank Kurtz persuaded the City of LA to buy it and he flew it till 1948 when it transferred ownership to NASM. It returned home to 19BG at March AFB where many instruments, bomb racks etc were replaced and a/c brought into IFR condition once more.

Interestingly enough, the last flight was made with only one engine for the last 50 miles, but light enough to maintain altitude.

After 8 years of neglect it was finally disassembled and moved to Suitland, Md storage and maintenance facility.

The Swoose was my central character in the Memories thread, the one where I stepped through the left elevator on my way to radio hatch.

THAT repair had been made before 1982 when I was up at the Garber repair and storage facility - I spent some time with the head of the refurbish program and quite a bit had been done on the Swoose before disassembly -

If I had to pick between the Swoose and the the Belle I would have to lean to the Belle - but the Swoose was one heckuva B-17.

Regards,

Bill