Bomber on the main island in Hawaii
Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:57 pm
Just saw a photo of a bomber up in the hills on the main island. Has it been recovered? The photowas taken on March29,2005.
Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:36 pm
You mean the B-18 on Oahu? [edit: actually on the island of Hawaii]
https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-18/36-446.html
As far as I know, it's still there...
https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-18/36-446.html
As far as I know, it's still there...
Last edited by Russ Matthews on Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:44 pm
Main Island usually means the big island of Hawaii and not Oahu. Is there another one you're talking about?
Enjoy the Day! Mark
Enjoy the Day! Mark
Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:45 pm
Thanks! That would be the one. Is there a problem preventing recovery?
Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:34 pm
if so, probably the national park service has protected the area.
B-18 in Hawai'i
Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:50 pm
Hello everyone,
As this is my first post, I would like to introduce myself. My name is Chris Rathbun, and I have joined this forum to discuss this B-18 in Hawai'i. I am part owner of Laupahoehoe Nui LLC, the owner of the property where this B-18 crash landed.
The plane is still sitting in a gulch on our property. Recently, the Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum contacted us about possibly recovering the plane. Initially they would like to survey the site, check the condition of the plane, and see if recovery is feasable. If it is determined that this is a viable project, we will have some decisions to make- decisions I am hoping the members of this forum will be willing to help us with.
First let's talk about the plane. B-18 # 36-446 took off with three other planes from Hickam Field on O'ahu Feburary 25, 1941 to practice interisland night navigation with instruments. It suffered a failure of the port engine while flying in instrument conditions and crashed into the Kohala summit swamps west of Waimanu. The crew was rescued on February 28.
From the Air Force biography of General Hibbard:
UNUSUAL EXPERIENCES
In 1941, General Hubbard, (then captain) was flying a
B-18 on instruments in weather at night at 10,000 feet
in the vicinity of Hilo along the north shore of the
island of Hawaii, when a main bearing failure caused
the loss of one engine. Although all possible fuel and
cargo was jettisoned, the aircraft was too heavily
loaded to maintain altitude on one engine. In
attempting to reach a field on the northwest tip of
the island by holding altitude insofar as possible
with maximum power and optimum airspeed, contact was
made with trees while still on instruments and the
aircraft crash landed on the side of Mount Mauna Kea,
at 3,500 feet.
Only minor injuries were sustained by the general and
two of the other five in the crew. There were no
navigational aids in the area and although only 13
miles from the auxiliary field, it took a day and a
half for the rescue party to reach them and another
day and a half to get out. There were 2,500 foot
vertical ravines only one quarter and one half miles
on either side of the crash.
******************************************************
O.K., the plane actually crashed on Kohala, north of Mauna Kea, and the 2500 foot deep valleys of Waimanu and Honopue are considerably more than 3/4 of a mile apart, but it makes a great story...
Dave Trojan at Wreckchasers' wreckchasing message board shares this:
The crew was shook up, but miraculously only one crew member suffered a minor injury. During the night the crew endured cold and rain in total darkness. Following the crash the crew made sure that all power to the aircraft was turned off and then tried to get some rest. One airman who was riding in the bombardier compartment located in the aircraft nose section opened the lower hatch and tried to lower himself out to find his feet did not touch anything solid, so he pulled back inside and warned the rest of the crew to not attempt dropping out of that hatch until daylight. The next morning they discovered the plane's nose section jutted out over a 75-foot deep ravine. The crew later described the crash as a “miracle escape.”
On one of the other B-18s in the group was Lee Webster, a Flight Engineer, on his first night navigation mission. Lee Webster gave this account of the accident, “I was just becoming accustomed to the eerie feeling of night flying by the time we started our second leg of the triangle toward a point somewhere off the northern tip of the island and to this point radio contact led us to believe we were in good shape. Suddenly that was shattered by a report from one of the other planes having engine problems and then soon after a report of engine failure and that they were losing altitude. We immediately broke off our mission to accompany the disabled aircraft into Hilo airport, but to make matters worse we flew into some very bad weather. After what seemed a short period of time we lost radio contact with them and when attempts to locate the lost plane became futile we returned to Hickam Field.”
The next morning at dawn a massive search and rescue operation was launched from Hickam Field using 24 bombers. The aircraft wreck was soon spotted at nine in the morning. Later in the day the downed aircrew received an airdrop from Army planes of blankets, food and hot coffee. Wednesday night was much more comfortable for the crew who spend another night in the tropical forest.
A ground rescue operation was organized from Upolu Point, Suiter Field and started out Thursday morning at dawn. The rescuers followed the Kohala Ditch Trail from Kaukini Camp for 2 ½ hours on horseback, but then had to cut a new trail on foot for eight miles through marshland and heavy brush for another four hours before nearing the crash site. The rescuers fired revolvers into the air and then listened for a reply. They were about to give up, when they finally heard a reply by the crew who used a burst of machine gun fire and colored flares which guided the rescuers to the crash site. The rescue party reached the crash scene at noon. Airmen from Hickam later described the site as the “Worst possible place for a forced landing in the Islands.”
At the time only the bombsight and instruments were salvaged from the wreck. Due to its location, it was decided that any further salvage of the aircraft was impossible.
*******************************************************
The plane came to rest hanging over Waikaloa stream. Later it slid into the gulch, where it remains today. It appears to be surprisingly undamaged. Unfortunately people coming in by Helicopter in recent years have taken everything that isn't nailed down, and the Air Force apparently made a salvage raid to restore the B-18A in their museum.
This appears to be one of only two B18's still in existence, although there are at least four B-18A's in various museums. Clearly it has historical importance- and so we have some questions before we give it away...
First, does anyone have any additional information about this particular plane?
Second, we are looking for insight into ownership issues. Do we own the plane once it has sat on our land for 65 years? Does the Army? (It originally belonged to the Army Air Force). Did the Air Force inherit the Army interest, if any? How does a plane pass from Military to Civilian ownership? Can any of you warbird owners clarify this for us?
Third, what is it worth? If we own it, should we just give it to the museum? Lend it to them? Sell it to them? Keep it on our property as a tourist attraction? Take it out and restore it? Sell it to someone else?
Any and all input is appreciated.
Thanks,
Chris
As this is my first post, I would like to introduce myself. My name is Chris Rathbun, and I have joined this forum to discuss this B-18 in Hawai'i. I am part owner of Laupahoehoe Nui LLC, the owner of the property where this B-18 crash landed.
The plane is still sitting in a gulch on our property. Recently, the Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum contacted us about possibly recovering the plane. Initially they would like to survey the site, check the condition of the plane, and see if recovery is feasable. If it is determined that this is a viable project, we will have some decisions to make- decisions I am hoping the members of this forum will be willing to help us with.
First let's talk about the plane. B-18 # 36-446 took off with three other planes from Hickam Field on O'ahu Feburary 25, 1941 to practice interisland night navigation with instruments. It suffered a failure of the port engine while flying in instrument conditions and crashed into the Kohala summit swamps west of Waimanu. The crew was rescued on February 28.
From the Air Force biography of General Hibbard:
UNUSUAL EXPERIENCES
In 1941, General Hubbard, (then captain) was flying a
B-18 on instruments in weather at night at 10,000 feet
in the vicinity of Hilo along the north shore of the
island of Hawaii, when a main bearing failure caused
the loss of one engine. Although all possible fuel and
cargo was jettisoned, the aircraft was too heavily
loaded to maintain altitude on one engine. In
attempting to reach a field on the northwest tip of
the island by holding altitude insofar as possible
with maximum power and optimum airspeed, contact was
made with trees while still on instruments and the
aircraft crash landed on the side of Mount Mauna Kea,
at 3,500 feet.
Only minor injuries were sustained by the general and
two of the other five in the crew. There were no
navigational aids in the area and although only 13
miles from the auxiliary field, it took a day and a
half for the rescue party to reach them and another
day and a half to get out. There were 2,500 foot
vertical ravines only one quarter and one half miles
on either side of the crash.
******************************************************
O.K., the plane actually crashed on Kohala, north of Mauna Kea, and the 2500 foot deep valleys of Waimanu and Honopue are considerably more than 3/4 of a mile apart, but it makes a great story...
Dave Trojan at Wreckchasers' wreckchasing message board shares this:
The crew was shook up, but miraculously only one crew member suffered a minor injury. During the night the crew endured cold and rain in total darkness. Following the crash the crew made sure that all power to the aircraft was turned off and then tried to get some rest. One airman who was riding in the bombardier compartment located in the aircraft nose section opened the lower hatch and tried to lower himself out to find his feet did not touch anything solid, so he pulled back inside and warned the rest of the crew to not attempt dropping out of that hatch until daylight. The next morning they discovered the plane's nose section jutted out over a 75-foot deep ravine. The crew later described the crash as a “miracle escape.”
On one of the other B-18s in the group was Lee Webster, a Flight Engineer, on his first night navigation mission. Lee Webster gave this account of the accident, “I was just becoming accustomed to the eerie feeling of night flying by the time we started our second leg of the triangle toward a point somewhere off the northern tip of the island and to this point radio contact led us to believe we were in good shape. Suddenly that was shattered by a report from one of the other planes having engine problems and then soon after a report of engine failure and that they were losing altitude. We immediately broke off our mission to accompany the disabled aircraft into Hilo airport, but to make matters worse we flew into some very bad weather. After what seemed a short period of time we lost radio contact with them and when attempts to locate the lost plane became futile we returned to Hickam Field.”
The next morning at dawn a massive search and rescue operation was launched from Hickam Field using 24 bombers. The aircraft wreck was soon spotted at nine in the morning. Later in the day the downed aircrew received an airdrop from Army planes of blankets, food and hot coffee. Wednesday night was much more comfortable for the crew who spend another night in the tropical forest.
A ground rescue operation was organized from Upolu Point, Suiter Field and started out Thursday morning at dawn. The rescuers followed the Kohala Ditch Trail from Kaukini Camp for 2 ½ hours on horseback, but then had to cut a new trail on foot for eight miles through marshland and heavy brush for another four hours before nearing the crash site. The rescuers fired revolvers into the air and then listened for a reply. They were about to give up, when they finally heard a reply by the crew who used a burst of machine gun fire and colored flares which guided the rescuers to the crash site. The rescue party reached the crash scene at noon. Airmen from Hickam later described the site as the “Worst possible place for a forced landing in the Islands.”
At the time only the bombsight and instruments were salvaged from the wreck. Due to its location, it was decided that any further salvage of the aircraft was impossible.
*******************************************************
The plane came to rest hanging over Waikaloa stream. Later it slid into the gulch, where it remains today. It appears to be surprisingly undamaged. Unfortunately people coming in by Helicopter in recent years have taken everything that isn't nailed down, and the Air Force apparently made a salvage raid to restore the B-18A in their museum.
This appears to be one of only two B18's still in existence, although there are at least four B-18A's in various museums. Clearly it has historical importance- and so we have some questions before we give it away...
First, does anyone have any additional information about this particular plane?
Second, we are looking for insight into ownership issues. Do we own the plane once it has sat on our land for 65 years? Does the Army? (It originally belonged to the Army Air Force). Did the Air Force inherit the Army interest, if any? How does a plane pass from Military to Civilian ownership? Can any of you warbird owners clarify this for us?
Third, what is it worth? If we own it, should we just give it to the museum? Lend it to them? Sell it to them? Keep it on our property as a tourist attraction? Take it out and restore it? Sell it to someone else?
Any and all input is appreciated.
Thanks,
Chris
Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:07 pm
Personally I'd like to see the aircraft go to a group that would make it flyable. There are already plenty of B-18s on display in static condition. I think all of them are owned by the government with the stipulation that they will never fly again. I would say your first priority is to obtain salvage rights from the government. I've been talking with Justin from Pacific Wrecks Database, I'll see if he has any input on salvage laws in that area. It would be great to see one fly again, and I bet you could make a buck or two also.
Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:10 pm
Why give it away when you can make a buck.. If it's on your land you pretty much own it.. The airforce had a fire in their records room in the 40's..Look at glacier girl the p-38 they found in Greenland. they kept it.. not much value on the warbird circuit.. You probably could do better trading the airplane for something in the air force's bone yard.. that's where they keep planes that are no longer used and then you could sell that.. But I wouldn't give it away no matter how much they begged..I think I would paint not truspassing on top the plane untill you can trade or sell it but you would do much better trading with the airforce for something like a UH-1 helicopter. there is no way I would loan it.. I hope to see you proffit from owning the land and plane. P.S. Call up the air force museum and tell them that you have something to trade.
Last edited by Broken-Wrench on Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
B-18
Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:45 pm
Just an quick guess, first choice loan it to the museum, second choice sell or loan it to a group interested in restoring and flying it, if there are any tht have the funds and interest to do so.
B-18
Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:28 pm
Sell the bird or trade for something you can use.Also make sure you get it up front.Dont take any promises from anyone.That way you reduce the chance of getting burned. Good luck to you.
Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:39 am
I would stay away from trade situations if I were you.
Say for the sake of argument, the government gives you a couple of helicopters for it. What shape are the helicopters in? Unless you know helicopters, you'll have to pay someone to look at them for you and get you the best ones. Ok, now you have some good helicopters. How do you sell them, and get what they are worth? Again, unless you are an aircraft broker, or aspire to be one, you'll probably hire someone. Eventually, if you play your cards right, you will probably be paid well. The cost before you get paid will be high. Everything in aviation is expensive.
If I were you (I don't know you) I would sell it outright as is. No BS. You have a good product. It is probably the only B-18 available for sale in the word, and it has the ability to be restored to flying condition.
Its up to you whether you want to remove it from its current location before you try to sell it, or not. You will probably get more money if the buyer doesn't have to recover it. If you choose to recover it yourself, hire someone good. Don't do anything stupid like cut the wings off to make it easier. Like it says at the bottom of my posts, I've seen to many aircraft destroyed by the term "static restoration."
I think your sell, is that you have the only potentially flyable B-18 in the world.
My two cents.
Oh, and absolutely get a lawyer.
Say for the sake of argument, the government gives you a couple of helicopters for it. What shape are the helicopters in? Unless you know helicopters, you'll have to pay someone to look at them for you and get you the best ones. Ok, now you have some good helicopters. How do you sell them, and get what they are worth? Again, unless you are an aircraft broker, or aspire to be one, you'll probably hire someone. Eventually, if you play your cards right, you will probably be paid well. The cost before you get paid will be high. Everything in aviation is expensive.
If I were you (I don't know you) I would sell it outright as is. No BS. You have a good product. It is probably the only B-18 available for sale in the word, and it has the ability to be restored to flying condition.
Its up to you whether you want to remove it from its current location before you try to sell it, or not. You will probably get more money if the buyer doesn't have to recover it. If you choose to recover it yourself, hire someone good. Don't do anything stupid like cut the wings off to make it easier. Like it says at the bottom of my posts, I've seen to many aircraft destroyed by the term "static restoration."
I think your sell, is that you have the only potentially flyable B-18 in the world.
My two cents.
Oh, and absolutely get a lawyer.
Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:41 am
Hi,
I've done a little bit of research on the possibility of recovering this A/C. The location and position of the wreck make for a complex and difficult recovery. It's located in a very steep gulch with years of heavy brush and under growth.the A/C was heavely damaged in the crash combined with several years of corrosion and the removal of several components via the good old chain saw by no other than the Air Pirates [ who traded the parts to the Air Force Museum] have already complicated the recovery efforts let alone a airworthy restoration. Recovery costs alone would be stagering restoration to airworthy questionable. The A/c would have to be disassebled on site, not an easy task thats why its still there. The wreck is almost vertical making disassembly very dangerous,transporting tools, equipment and personel into such a rugged area is going to be a bit tricky if not life threatening. A rare A/C it is but I find it amaizing how many folks think that it's just a matter of hooking a chain around it and yank it out with a giant helicopter with a super pilot and wait for the money to pour in, as far as restoration 60 plus years of saltair and a crash landing on a mountain side should hardly be a consideration. I would like to see it recovered and preserved for the future but until someone with deep pockets and a lot of careful planning it's not likely to be going anywere soon. It's great to be a dreamer but unless you have the experience and skills to take on a such a difficult recovery I think the posts about making a ton of money on the sale is a bit week and as far as the statment of A/C being destroyed by static restoration that is a direct reflection of the people involved doing the work, most damage is done by poorly planned recovery efforts. One person with a great time saving idea like lets just cut it here and here and were on our way home can render any A/c to being little more than scrap. Once you get to the crash site and realise that it's a little bit bigger, heavier, and much more complicated than the Revell kit you built as a little boy you begain to wonder what the he11 was I thinking and why am I here? Good luck it should be preserved and displayed for future generations but lets use a little fore thought on were ,when and whats it worth to be able to make it a possibility for restoration.
Thanks Mike
I've done a little bit of research on the possibility of recovering this A/C. The location and position of the wreck make for a complex and difficult recovery. It's located in a very steep gulch with years of heavy brush and under growth.the A/C was heavely damaged in the crash combined with several years of corrosion and the removal of several components via the good old chain saw by no other than the Air Pirates [ who traded the parts to the Air Force Museum] have already complicated the recovery efforts let alone a airworthy restoration. Recovery costs alone would be stagering restoration to airworthy questionable. The A/c would have to be disassebled on site, not an easy task thats why its still there. The wreck is almost vertical making disassembly very dangerous,transporting tools, equipment and personel into such a rugged area is going to be a bit tricky if not life threatening. A rare A/C it is but I find it amaizing how many folks think that it's just a matter of hooking a chain around it and yank it out with a giant helicopter with a super pilot and wait for the money to pour in, as far as restoration 60 plus years of saltair and a crash landing on a mountain side should hardly be a consideration. I would like to see it recovered and preserved for the future but until someone with deep pockets and a lot of careful planning it's not likely to be going anywere soon. It's great to be a dreamer but unless you have the experience and skills to take on a such a difficult recovery I think the posts about making a ton of money on the sale is a bit week and as far as the statment of A/C being destroyed by static restoration that is a direct reflection of the people involved doing the work, most damage is done by poorly planned recovery efforts. One person with a great time saving idea like lets just cut it here and here and were on our way home can render any A/c to being little more than scrap. Once you get to the crash site and realise that it's a little bit bigger, heavier, and much more complicated than the Revell kit you built as a little boy you begain to wonder what the he11 was I thinking and why am I here? Good luck it should be preserved and displayed for future generations but lets use a little fore thought on were ,when and whats it worth to be able to make it a possibility for restoration.
Thanks Mike
Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:49 am
I'd say recover it. Would love to see it be restored to flying.
Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:27 am
I would love to see it recovered and displayed at the Ford Island museum. I think it is a great part of Hawaii's aviation history and lore.
It would make an excellent display as a "wreck" in a diorama type display, or make a good candidate for a long term static resto.
I think it would be extremely difficult to find someone willing to purchase it and invest the large amount of $ required to get it flying again.
Good luck finding a home for it! Please keep us updated on its situation.
And welcome to WIX.
It would make an excellent display as a "wreck" in a diorama type display, or make a good candidate for a long term static resto.
I think it would be extremely difficult to find someone willing to purchase it and invest the large amount of $ required to get it flying again.
Good luck finding a home for it! Please keep us updated on its situation.
And welcome to WIX.
Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:30 am
To give you an idea of how the bomber is situated:
Hey Chris thanks for responding and welcome aboard.
It's great to actually talk with someone who has first hand knowledge of this aircraft.
Last I had ever heard anything regarding this bird was a faint rumour that a group was working with a Army National Guard unit to heavylift the B-18 out of the Gulch. But like I mentioned it was a rumour.
As far as the ownership rights go. I think you'll find that the USAF will lay no claim to the aircraft. NMUSAF might be a different question though, even though they had plenty of time to lay claim to the aircraft. While the NMUSAF is nowhere as difficult to deal with as the NHC (Naval Historical Center) is, it's has made some questionable decisions (F-105D, A-12 etc etc) here in the recent past. I think the best way to look at it is that the B-18 was "cognitively" abandoned on your property by the USAAC. There fore anything within the confines or on your property belongs to you. If the NMUSAF were to try and claim the Bolo, I would have to imagine there is a statue of limitations that needs to be examined. One person I recommend talking to would be Lex Cralley (http://brewstercorsair.com )who just in recent years battled the NHC through the court system over an abandoned Corsair that he recovered from private property in NC. And HE WON. Lex is a member of WIX (screename F3A-1) and probalbly people here have his point of contact information if you wanted to speak with him.
Any idea when the PHAM trip to the B-18 is planned to happen? Also if you have any recent pictures of the Bolo to share, I'm sure a lot of people here would love to see them.
I think you'll find that WIX is great resource. Whether it be in information or networking with individuals that can help.
Again Welcome
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Hey Chris thanks for responding and welcome aboard.
It's great to actually talk with someone who has first hand knowledge of this aircraft.
Last I had ever heard anything regarding this bird was a faint rumour that a group was working with a Army National Guard unit to heavylift the B-18 out of the Gulch. But like I mentioned it was a rumour.
As far as the ownership rights go. I think you'll find that the USAF will lay no claim to the aircraft. NMUSAF might be a different question though, even though they had plenty of time to lay claim to the aircraft. While the NMUSAF is nowhere as difficult to deal with as the NHC (Naval Historical Center) is, it's has made some questionable decisions (F-105D, A-12 etc etc) here in the recent past. I think the best way to look at it is that the B-18 was "cognitively" abandoned on your property by the USAAC. There fore anything within the confines or on your property belongs to you. If the NMUSAF were to try and claim the Bolo, I would have to imagine there is a statue of limitations that needs to be examined. One person I recommend talking to would be Lex Cralley (http://brewstercorsair.com )who just in recent years battled the NHC through the court system over an abandoned Corsair that he recovered from private property in NC. And HE WON. Lex is a member of WIX (screename F3A-1) and probalbly people here have his point of contact information if you wanted to speak with him.
Any idea when the PHAM trip to the B-18 is planned to happen? Also if you have any recent pictures of the Bolo to share, I'm sure a lot of people here would love to see them.
I think you'll find that WIX is great resource. Whether it be in information or networking with individuals that can help.
Again Welcome
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis