Privateer engine/cowling question.
Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:26 pm
hello all
I've always been a big fan of the Privateer (OK, actually all B-24's and their variations, but especially the Navy ones), and I've always wondered about the engine installation; are they the same cowlings as a B-24, but simply rotated 90 degrees? That seems to be too simple of an answer, but you never know...
And does anyone know why the engine installation was changed like this? Something to do with the omission of the superchargers?
cheers
gv
I've always been a big fan of the Privateer (OK, actually all B-24's and their variations, but especially the Navy ones), and I've always wondered about the engine installation; are they the same cowlings as a B-24, but simply rotated 90 degrees? That seems to be too simple of an answer, but you never know...
And does anyone know why the engine installation was changed like this? Something to do with the omission of the superchargers?
cheers
gv
Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:59 am
Essentially the answer to your question is yes, they just rotated them 90 degrees. However, the cowlings do appear very similar but they are different from the standard B-24 cowling. The lower opening appears to be the same as the openings on the standard B-24 cowling, but the upper opening is much smaller.
Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:59 am
Greg,
The standard B-24 inlet configuration used one side intake to feed the intercooler for the turbo and the other fed the oil cooler and carb intake. On the Privateer the oil cooler intake was on the bottom and carb intake on top of the cowling. Since there was no turbo, no intercooler was installed. Note that the lower PB4Y-2 inlet is also much larger than the upper. There were likely no parts interchangeable between a B-24 and a PB4Y-2 nacelle.
Scott
The standard B-24 inlet configuration used one side intake to feed the intercooler for the turbo and the other fed the oil cooler and carb intake. On the Privateer the oil cooler intake was on the bottom and carb intake on top of the cowling. Since there was no turbo, no intercooler was installed. Note that the lower PB4Y-2 inlet is also much larger than the upper. There were likely no parts interchangeable between a B-24 and a PB4Y-2 nacelle.
Scott
Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:03 pm
thanks for the answers guys; I had not noticed that the openings were two different sizes.
I'm still curious as to why Consolidated rotated/changed the orientation, but I'm willing to bet that there is a sound engineering reason in there somewhere.
cheers
gv
I'm still curious as to why Consolidated rotated/changed the orientation, but I'm willing to bet that there is a sound engineering reason in there somewhere.
cheers
gv
Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:40 pm
Greg,
The designers of the PB4Y-2 cowlings and nacelles used the shortest and least complicated ducting system possible. The air intake on top went over the engine and turned down into the carburetor intake that points up. The oil cooler ducting went back to the cooler located below the nacelle just behind the engine. It was really quite a bit like the set-up used on the PBY only more streamlined since the oil cooler is completely faired in by sheetmetal. Hope that helps.
Scott
The designers of the PB4Y-2 cowlings and nacelles used the shortest and least complicated ducting system possible. The air intake on top went over the engine and turned down into the carburetor intake that points up. The oil cooler ducting went back to the cooler located below the nacelle just behind the engine. It was really quite a bit like the set-up used on the PBY only more streamlined since the oil cooler is completely faired in by sheetmetal. Hope that helps.
Scott
Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:29 pm
gregv wrote:I'm still curious as to why Consolidated rotated/changed the orientation, but I'm willing to bet that there is a sound engineering reason in there somewhere.
B-24/PB4Y-1 had turbos and PB4Y-2 didn't, not complicated.
Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:05 pm
Second Air Force wrote:Greg,
The designers of the PB4Y-2 cowlings and nacelles used the shortest and least complicated ducting system possible. The air intake on top went over the engine and turned down into the carburetor intake that points up. The oil cooler ducting went back to the cooler located below the nacelle just behind the engine. It was really quite a bit like the set-up used on the PBY only more streamlined since the oil cooler is completely faired in by sheetmetal. Hope that helps.
Scott
Scott
thanks, it all makes sense now!
cheers
gv
Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:33 pm
GregV,
The deletion of the turbo was due to changes made to the 'Navy Liberator (dash1) to create the dash 2 model. Its mission was long patrols at low altitude compared to where a B24 operated. Ditto the changes in guns. All airborne opposition was assumed to be coming from above.
As far as current warbird 4Y-2's go, practically all survivors now have B-25 R-2600 conversions with the 25s cowlings. This was because almost all suviving Privateers have been fire bombers, like N3739G at Lone Star. (I dream about assembling B-25 cowlings. Yikes!)
My friend Mark Connell flew N3739G in the late sixties fire fighting from Az. and his comment was "..they(Cyclones) were loud but the extra horsepower saved our bacon a few times." It's fire service number was Charlie 30 if you're really into surviving four Y's.
Doug Ratchford 'Canso42'
vol. Lone Star Flight Museum
The deletion of the turbo was due to changes made to the 'Navy Liberator (dash1) to create the dash 2 model. Its mission was long patrols at low altitude compared to where a B24 operated. Ditto the changes in guns. All airborne opposition was assumed to be coming from above.
As far as current warbird 4Y-2's go, practically all survivors now have B-25 R-2600 conversions with the 25s cowlings. This was because almost all suviving Privateers have been fire bombers, like N3739G at Lone Star. (I dream about assembling B-25 cowlings. Yikes!)
My friend Mark Connell flew N3739G in the late sixties fire fighting from Az. and his comment was "..they(Cyclones) were loud but the extra horsepower saved our bacon a few times." It's fire service number was Charlie 30 if you're really into surviving four Y's.
Doug Ratchford 'Canso42'
vol. Lone Star Flight Museum
Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:46 am
Doug
thanks for all the info!
How's your example coming along? That is going to be quite a sight when she's done. I wonder when the last time was that anyone saw a PB4Y-2 complete with waist blisters, turrets etc...
Can't wait!
thanks
gv
thanks for all the info!
How's your example coming along? That is going to be quite a sight when she's done. I wonder when the last time was that anyone saw a PB4Y-2 complete with waist blisters, turrets etc...
Can't wait!
thanks
gv
Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:41 pm
Greg
I hope you're patient. LS 's four-Y had a lot done to it but it bogged down for a couple of years. The brass and nco's have nudged it forward again this summer, starting with assembling two cowlings to see what was there or not. It needs a lot but it's still come a long way. We have a full set of correct turrets, even the weird sit down waist turrets.
Doug
I hope you're patient. LS 's four-Y had a lot done to it but it bogged down for a couple of years. The brass and nco's have nudged it forward again this summer, starting with assembling two cowlings to see what was there or not. It needs a lot but it's still come a long way. We have a full set of correct turrets, even the weird sit down waist turrets.
Doug
Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:04 pm
How original is the restoration going to be. I haven't run across any recent pictures, so I don't know where you all stand. I know you are going to install all of the turrets (the waist turrets are my favorite) what are you doing about the other fire bomber modifications. I assume you are keeping the B-25, engine / cowling arrangement?
Maybe you could start an ongoing thread on the restoration to keep us posted. It might help with publicity to keep the project going and to find parts you may need.
Oh, and post lots of pictures.
If you could send the world my way too, that would be great.
Maybe you could start an ongoing thread on the restoration to keep us posted. It might help with publicity to keep the project going and to find parts you may need.
Oh, and post lots of pictures.
If you could send the world my way too, that would be great.
Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:12 pm
Curtis
Charlie 30 is not going to be a 100 point restoration (sorry, automotive terminology). Yes we're keeping the R-2600's. They perform and we have the engines. Also the effort, time and cost of retrofitting R-1830's would be prohibitive and the main obstacle to that is an almost total absence of any original cowlings. B-25 metal isn't original but it's available. Fire bomber stuff went away. You're right, the waist turrets are cool. I'd never seen or heard of such a thing till I stood up in the bomb bay recently accompanied by another volunteer who was involved with their installation.
I've only recently become involved with this airplane so there are some big gaps in my knowledge. I also need to get that teenager over for pizza to send photos to this site.
Doug R. Canso42
Charlie 30 is not going to be a 100 point restoration (sorry, automotive terminology). Yes we're keeping the R-2600's. They perform and we have the engines. Also the effort, time and cost of retrofitting R-1830's would be prohibitive and the main obstacle to that is an almost total absence of any original cowlings. B-25 metal isn't original but it's available. Fire bomber stuff went away. You're right, the waist turrets are cool. I'd never seen or heard of such a thing till I stood up in the bomb bay recently accompanied by another volunteer who was involved with their installation.
I've only recently become involved with this airplane so there are some big gaps in my knowledge. I also need to get that teenager over for pizza to send photos to this site.
Doug R. Canso42
Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:28 pm
Will the original type windshield be installed?
Are you keeping the steps?
Are you installing the fixed 20mm guns on the sides of the nose, like some had? Please! Please! Please!
Any ideas on a paint scheme?
Are you keeping the steps?
Are you installing the fixed 20mm guns on the sides of the nose, like some had? Please! Please! Please!
Any ideas on a paint scheme?
Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:33 pm
Curtis,
I can't answer your first two questions but I can find out tomorrow. Twenty mike mikes on the nose?? Nope, sorry.
Paint scheme will match what it wore in the Navy. We have the color photo documentation.
Doug.
I can't answer your first two questions but I can find out tomorrow. Twenty mike mikes on the nose?? Nope, sorry.
Paint scheme will match what it wore in the Navy. We have the color photo documentation.
Doug.
Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:07 pm
Some Privateers form VPB-108 had fixed forward firing 20mm canons added in the field. I think there were 4, package mounted on the nose, like in the B-25. I guess the pilots wanted to get a piece of the shooting action too. If anyone has some photos I'd like to see them.
I applaud the decision to paint the aircraft in the original markings. Unfortunately I don't know the airframes history. However, (I'm taking a step back from my purest roots here) it would be nice to see the aircraft pay tribute to some of the absolute nut-balls that flew them in WWII. Kind of like the way the Collings foundation keeps re-marking the B-24. There were some incredibly courageous crews that flew that thing and they did some incredible things with a four engine aircraft. It would be nice to see some of their stories shared through a tribute aircraft. Some really good looking nose art to, if you know what I mean.
I applaud the decision to paint the aircraft in the original markings. Unfortunately I don't know the airframes history. However, (I'm taking a step back from my purest roots here) it would be nice to see the aircraft pay tribute to some of the absolute nut-balls that flew them in WWII. Kind of like the way the Collings foundation keeps re-marking the B-24. There were some incredibly courageous crews that flew that thing and they did some incredible things with a four engine aircraft. It would be nice to see some of their stories shared through a tribute aircraft. Some really good looking nose art to, if you know what I mean.