D-Day Invasion stripes & Sharks mouths

If I didn't know much about warbirds, I would probably ask why so many warbirds had those black and white stripes. And why most of the P-40's had sharks mouths. I know the sharks mouth debate has been rumbling here for a while, but how about starting a debate on invasion stripes.

Who here has a say on the matter? ... or dares to have a say? .. haha

I personally love D-Day invasion stripes, especially on medium bombers and P-38's. But I'm starting to turn the other way on P-47's and some P-51's. I would love the MAAM P-61 to have invasion stripes, and an A-20 someday would look outstanding in stripes as well. While I think about it, have any P-40's ever had D-Day invasion stripes during the war? ...

[Steve T]

Hellcat--

OK, I'll weigh in...I don't have dearly-held views on "D-Day Stripes" as they tend to get called, but mandatory dentistry on restored P-40s (or restored H87 Kittyhawks) does get my goat. Besides, I have all day! It has been refreshing of late to see several P-40s completed without sharkmouths. I admit the front end of the V12 Hawks (especially the H81 version) does suit the marking, but plenty of success in combat was had by pilots in Hawks without teeth on the front!

If one is specifically commemorating the Normandy invasion with a restoration, the stripes are certainly striking-looking...however if one is really commemorating D-Day, if one is going to be a purist, one should make the stripes fairly slapdash...not micrometer-perfect as they tend to be on restorations. The stripes were a hurriedly-applied--and strictly temporary--ID measure. Re the MAAM P-61, I hope the museum does NOT put stripes on it: that, which is likely the only Black Widow with a shot at flying again, was a Pacific theatre airplane and surely ought to be restored as such.

Interesting question about P-40s carrying the stripes. I doubt this would have been the case; most (all?) P-40 series aircraft operational in the UK/western Europe would have been RAF/RCAF "army cooperation" H81 Tomahawks, and those would all have been replaced by Mustang Is and/or Spitfire Vs long before D-Day. But there are always those flukey exceptions in wartime. Anyone ever see a Tomahawk or similar in invasion stripes, maybe on charge with an OTU??

S.

[Mike Bates]

Not all stripes were sloppy.





Mike

[Jack Cook]

Oh come on Mike.
Those photo guys are always taking pictures
They probably painted it up special for photos for the folks.

BTW Maj Charlie Salter of HQ 20th FG was transfered out of the unit by HQ 8th FC after having the 20th FG P-38s
painted with stripes a day early (secrecy ya know). He was trying to keep maxium a/c operational and carry out that
instruction at the same time. He ended up in 9th Bomber Command. He nice fellow BTW RIP.

Oh come on Mike.
Those photo guys are always taking pictures
They probably painted it up special for photos for the folks.

BTW Maj Charlie Salter of HQ 20th FG was transfered out of the unit by HQ 8th FC after having the 20th FG P-38s
painted with stripes a day early (secrecy ya know). He was trying to keep maxium a/c operational and carry out that
instruction at the same time. He ended up in 9th Bomber Command. He nice fellow BTW RIP.

Interesting Jack, am I understanding that D-Day invasions stripes were painted on allied aircraft the day or day before 6 June, 1944? ... I did not know that. what a task that must have been, but that would tend to explain the hurried look.

[famvburg]

Are you saying the MAAM P-61 specifically was a Pacific a/c? ISTR most of the ETO P-61s were OD over gray before being black overall. AN OD & gray P-61 with stripes would certainly be different, but if there's only going to be ONE flying, it should just be gloss black, whether a PTO or ETO a/c doesn't matter. Some B-29s were OD over gray or had black bellies, (or were USSR Tu-4s or RAF Washingtons for that matter), but IMHO, until there are a half dozen or so flying, the one flyable one should be fairly generic & most common in appearance, IMHO.

Hellcat--

OK, I'll weigh in...I don't have dearly-held views on "D-Day Stripes" as they tend to get called, but mandatory dentistry on restored P-40s (or restored H87 Kittyhawks) does get my goat. Besides, I have all day! It has been refreshing of late to see several P-40s completed without sharkmouths. I admit the front end of the V12 Hawks (especially the H81 version) does suit the marking, but plenty of success in combat was had by pilots in Hawks without teeth on the front!

If one is specifically commemorating the Normandy invasion with a restoration, the stripes are certainly striking-looking...however if one is really commemorating D-Day, if one is going to be a purist, one should make the stripes fairly slapdash...not micrometer-perfect as they tend to be on restorations. The stripes were a hurriedly-applied--and strictly temporary--ID measure. Re the MAAM P-61, I hope the museum does NOT put stripes on it: that, which is likely the only Black Widow with a shot at flying again, was a Pacific theatre airplane and surely ought to be restored as such.

Interesting question about P-40s carrying the stripes. I doubt this would have been the case; most (all?) P-40 series aircraft operational in the UK/western Europe would have been RAF/RCAF "army cooperation" H81 Tomahawks, and those would all have been replaced by Mustang Is and/or Spitfire Vs long before D-Day. But there are always those flukey exceptions in wartime. Anyone ever see a Tomahawk or similar in invasion stripes, maybe on charge with an OTU??

S.

[Jack Cook]

550th NFS 13th AF 1945 Hollandia, New Guinea

[Second Air Force]

My personal opinion about the Invasion stripes is to put them on with a mop like most units did, excepting the new info that Jack just put up. As for the beautiful MAAM P-61, I would love to see it in it's ORIGINAL theatre markings, not that of some other airplane from some other unit, famous or not. Just my two cents worth, not criticism of anyone else. Heck, I'd like to paint FIFI in her original trainer colors from Grand Island when she was new, and I know that wouldn't go over too well!

Scott the purist (sorry for stealing the tagline, Mudge)

[Forgotten Field]

The invasion stripes were used for a second time during the invasion of Holland, but only the lower surfaces of the airplanes were supposed to be painted.

[ZRX61]

And more recently



Now a friend wants me to paint some on his '08 Chevy Silverado...

& yes, the interior is Olive Green....including under the hood

[Swiss Mustangs]

If one is specifically commemorating the Normandy invasion with a restoration, the stripes are certainly striking-looking...however if one is really commemorating D-Day, if one is going to be a purist, one should make the stripes fairly slapdash...not micrometer-perfect as they tend to be on restorations. The stripes were a hurriedly-applied--and strictly temporary--ID measure. S.

something like that ?



Spitfire IX on D-Day

Martin

[famvburg]

The only problem there is with the public's perception of 'what a sloppy paint job!' & even getting a paint shop to do it. "We're not putting our name on work that looks like that!' Of course, it could be done as an afterthought, which they were. I think the biggest problem would be the public perception tho.

If one is specifically commemorating the Normandy invasion with a restoration, the stripes are certainly striking-looking...however if one is really commemorating D-Day, if one is going to be a purist, one should make the stripes fairly slapdash...not micrometer-perfect as they tend to be on restorations. The stripes were a hurriedly-applied--and strictly temporary--ID measure. S.

something like that ?



Spitfire IX on D-Day

Martin

[famvburg]

Speaking of invasion/ID stripes, how were the 'inavsion stripes' that are seen on a lot of Sea Furies that come to mind at least, during Korea(?) painted? Expertly applied or slopped on? How about the black & yellow stripes seen on French Corsairs & some other French a/c? Slopped on or what?

[k5083]

As far as neat/sloppy, both the photographic record and common sense indicate that some D-day stripes were painted pretty neat, others very sloppy, and everything in between. Sloppy isn't automatically accurate.

Also, sloppy stripes on 6 July 44 didn't necessarily stay that way. No doubt many conscientious crew chiefs neatened things up when they got the chance after the invasion.

Theater markings applied at a more leisurely pace to ID aircraft throughout a whole campaign, like the Brits in Korea and the French (and Brits, too) in Suez, generally were pretty neat. Again, photos and intuition agree.

As for whether to put them on restored aircraft:

I'm of the school that votes for restoring every vintage aircraft in its own original markings, even if those would make it not "representative" or undistinguished. I'm in good company among those who like vintage aircraft (i.e. those who focus on civil aircraft or who don't distinguish between civil and military) but in the minority among specialist warbird enthusiasts who are more apt to feel that preserved airplanes are supposed to commemorate something.

I often hear the argument famvburg raises, that if there is only one flying, it should be in the most representative scheme, and the person stating this position invariably then puts forth a totally personal, subjective and debatable opinion as to what that most-representative scheme is, as famvburg has done. What often happens with warbirds is that every operator treats his warbird as if it were the only one flying and places it in what he considers the most-representative paint scheme, and to the extent that people agree on what that scheme is, we end up with a lot of warbirds wearing almost the same paint scheme (even if not accurate for the variant) and a lot of worthy paint schemes not represented.

So I would say, put the D-day stripes on if you think they look sharp, and if that is what you want to commemorate. I would prefer, however, that operators not add D-day stripes to paint schemes where they're innaccurate. For example, most 8th AF P-51 units had coloration on their noses which, prior to Jan. 45, were confined (with a few exceptions such as the bluenoses and the yellownoses) to a small area right behind the spinner. In around Jan. 1945, these markings were often extended back across most or all of the engine cowling. By that time, the D-day stripes were all gone. But Mustang owners like more color on the nose and they also like D-day stripes, so some inaccurately combine the markings. Current examples of this are the CAF's Red Nose, "Sizzlin Liz", and several others. So by all means put 'em on, but only if they belong! (I would think that accurate 8th AF markings would be gaudy enough for anybody...)

August

[Jesse C.]

I think wether correct or not, most owners go for the WOW! factor more than the accuracy factor. As for them being correct or not, most air show goers, Joe Public and his sister, Jane Doe, really don't even know what the marking are or wether they are correct or not, but they do catch the eye.

Only the hard core purist or those sick of stripes and teeth go for the totally accurate look.

And as far as the glossy paint deal goes, well, I will leave that alone for now!

Just my crazy thoughts, your mileage may vary!