Ventura/Harpoon question
Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:44 pm
I was looking at http://www.airliners.net and did a search on pv-2 harpoons and the result got me thinking.
The result was a whole lot of derilect airframes so I looked a bit further including the warbird registry, same results, lots of derilects and as far as I can see only 3 airworthy examples and a couple more under restoration.
My Question is..............
With people going to extraordinary lengths to recover much more common
(in terms of numbers) airframes why are very restoreable and accessable
PV-1/2s being ignored?
To me they seem to have alot of good qualities such as a wartime record, a reasonable parts supply, decent speed, cool operational paintjobs, plenty of offensive configurations, can carry a decent number of people and most of all the right sort of engine, i.e big round ones.
The result was a whole lot of derilect airframes so I looked a bit further including the warbird registry, same results, lots of derilects and as far as I can see only 3 airworthy examples and a couple more under restoration.
My Question is..............
With people going to extraordinary lengths to recover much more common
(in terms of numbers) airframes why are very restoreable and accessable
PV-1/2s being ignored?
To me they seem to have alot of good qualities such as a wartime record, a reasonable parts supply, decent speed, cool operational paintjobs, plenty of offensive configurations, can carry a decent number of people and most of all the right sort of engine, i.e big round ones.
Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:13 pm
Sadly they arn't worth the money of someting like a B-25 so they tend to
be derelict of long term restoration projects. Very nice aircraft but just don't have the charisma to some of the Army bombers.
be derelict of long term restoration projects. Very nice aircraft but just don't have the charisma to some of the Army bombers.
Re: Ventura/Harpoon question
Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:37 pm
hairy wrote:I was looking at http://www.airliners.net and did a search on pv-2 harpoons and the result got me thinking.
The result was a whole lot of derilect airframes so I looked a bit further including the warbird registry, same results, lots of derilects and as far as I can see only 3 airworthy examples and a couple more under restoration.
My Question is..............
With people going to extraordinary lengths to recover much more common
(in terms of numbers) airframes why are very restoreable and accessable
PV-1/2s being ignored?
To me they seem to have alot of good qualities such as a wartime record, a reasonable parts supply, decent speed, cool operational paintjobs, plenty of offensive configurations, can carry a decent number of people and most of all the right sort of engine, i.e big round ones.
This is something I can speak with some experience on, since I am having a ground up restoration done on a PV-2 at John Lane's Airpower Unlimited.
The PV-1s are basically non-existent, the few that are around that could be potential flyers are Howard conversions and would require considerable work to go back the other direction.
The PV-2s that exist are all ex-agricultural aircraft. They are very tired and have some nasty corrosion growing in hard to get to reach places. The farther we dug into mine, they more they found, requiring extensive sheet metal repairs to insure a long term future. If you are not prepared to completely disassemble the aircraft, you are looking at some problems down the line.
They also do not have the popular recognition that the B-25 or a-26 has, and they are not first on the list of the major collectors to obtain.
As for their being 3 airworthy, I think that you will find that there is currently onyl one beign regular flown and it hasn't flown in nearly a year because of a bad enigne.
My airplane will done in a few years. We have all the original military equipment, so it should be pretty neat when it is finished. I have few pictures from early in the restoration on www.pv2harpoon.com, but haven't had time to update the website in years do to other projects.. not the least of these being Warbird Digest.
PV-1 Ventura
Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:13 pm
Hi Tim
I think you'll find if you visited www.rcafventura.ca you'll see a PV-1 that was never a howard conversion and is being restored to airworthy. It's been a long road and still has a ways to go. Money (as always) is the issue but as it comes in things get done and one day soon it will grace the skies yet again.
Sincerely Gerry
ps by the way when I try to get to your site from your link it comes up "bad gateway")
I think you'll find if you visited www.rcafventura.ca you'll see a PV-1 that was never a howard conversion and is being restored to airworthy. It's been a long road and still has a ways to go. Money (as always) is the issue but as it comes in things get done and one day soon it will grace the skies yet again.
Sincerely Gerry
ps by the way when I try to get to your site from your link it comes up "bad gateway")
Re: PV-1 Ventura
Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:18 pm
Gerry H wrote:Hi Tim
I think you'll find if you visited www.rcafventura.ca you'll see a PV-1 that was never a howard conversion and is being restored to airworthy. It's been a long road and still has a ways to go. Money (as always) is the issue but as it comes in things get done and one day soon it will grace the skies yet again.
Sincerely Gerry
ps by the way when I try to get to your site from your link it comes up "bad gateway")
Hi Gerry-
Yep, I forgot about that one...I have sent them some parts in the past.
I don't have any problem getting to the site...not sure what is happening for you.
Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:54 pm
Thanks for the info soo quickly guys, its nice to know somebody out there cares for this under-estimated bird. I started to really appriciate its qualities after seeing the MOTAT RB-34 at the tender age of 12.
Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:56 pm
Hi Tim/Hairy et al--
This topic just keeps cropping up! There are clearly lots of fans of the big Lockheed twins on WIX (one of which I'm). Thanks, Tim, for that quick rundown on why the PVs have never caught on in the marketplace. I certainly look forward to seeing your Harpoon sometime. Saw John Lane's rebuild of Gary Kohs' FG-1D last season at Akron...breathtaking. (Had the pleasure of meeting both gents as well.) Your PV will be a beauty.
As to de-converting a Howard 250 or 500...permit me to play devil's advocate momentarily. Sure, it'd involve some, er, artistic/historical licence...but long ago I thought it'd be neat to take one of the executive-configured A-26 Invaders, and without deconverting it, finish it as a USAF VB-26B VIP staff transport. (Like the ANG Bureau birds, with that glorious mirror finish). Sure, a Marketeer or such is less stock than a VB-26B; but they're both customized for fundamentally the same thing, ferrying VIPs (or executives, or generals) around the continent quickly. Mention has already been made of how capacious the PVs are (hardly surprising since they stem from a transport design); and obviously Mr Howard saw the advantages of the type as a fast transport in the 50s. So...could not one "invent" a Navy VIP transport analogous to the VB-26B (a "JRV-1")? Or, better, WAS there a Navy VIP PV one could quasi-replicate? It'd surely make a very nice WIX airshow bus...
S.
This topic just keeps cropping up! There are clearly lots of fans of the big Lockheed twins on WIX (one of which I'm). Thanks, Tim, for that quick rundown on why the PVs have never caught on in the marketplace. I certainly look forward to seeing your Harpoon sometime. Saw John Lane's rebuild of Gary Kohs' FG-1D last season at Akron...breathtaking. (Had the pleasure of meeting both gents as well.) Your PV will be a beauty.
As to de-converting a Howard 250 or 500...permit me to play devil's advocate momentarily. Sure, it'd involve some, er, artistic/historical licence...but long ago I thought it'd be neat to take one of the executive-configured A-26 Invaders, and without deconverting it, finish it as a USAF VB-26B VIP staff transport. (Like the ANG Bureau birds, with that glorious mirror finish). Sure, a Marketeer or such is less stock than a VB-26B; but they're both customized for fundamentally the same thing, ferrying VIPs (or executives, or generals) around the continent quickly. Mention has already been made of how capacious the PVs are (hardly surprising since they stem from a transport design); and obviously Mr Howard saw the advantages of the type as a fast transport in the 50s. So...could not one "invent" a Navy VIP transport analogous to the VB-26B (a "JRV-1")? Or, better, WAS there a Navy VIP PV one could quasi-replicate? It'd surely make a very nice WIX airshow bus...
S.
Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:10 pm
Tim
Just checked your website, awsome, I can see what you mean about the amount of work involved.
As for corrosion in dung-droppers, you should see the loadstar in Gisbourne N.Z.
More power to you, keeper of the faith.
Just checked your website, awsome, I can see what you mean about the amount of work involved.
As for corrosion in dung-droppers, you should see the loadstar in Gisbourne N.Z.
More power to you, keeper of the faith.
Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:04 am
I've had a fancy for the PV-2's also. Just a few years ago there were four of them (all ex-firetankers) at Schellville Airport in Sonoma. Only one is there now. Another has the same owners and is at Solano (Nut Tree) Airport, but hasn't flown since it was ferried there.
The plane that went to Australia (VH-SFF) from Oakland Airport California in 1988 was a PV-1. Is it still airworthy, and was it a Howard Conversion?
The plane that went to Australia (VH-SFF) from Oakland Airport California in 1988 was a PV-1. Is it still airworthy, and was it a Howard Conversion?
Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:24 am
Hi Roger,
Unfortunately the RAAF Museum Ventura is no longer airworthy. Something happened on a flight and the resultant forced landing was carried out wheels up. The damage was nothing more than would be expected from such an event with the big dollar damage being to the props and the associated engine inspection/repair.
Not long before the incident, the aircraft had received at least one fully overhauled engine. Obviously the costs of repair to airworthy condition and the fact that it's RAAF Museum policy to generally only fly aircraft types of which they own more than one, led to a static future for the aircraft. I don't know if it was a Howard conversion but I'd doubt it since she seems a fairly stock bird.
By the way, great close up of the B-25 there mate.
Cheers,
Matt
Unfortunately the RAAF Museum Ventura is no longer airworthy. Something happened on a flight and the resultant forced landing was carried out wheels up. The damage was nothing more than would be expected from such an event with the big dollar damage being to the props and the associated engine inspection/repair.
Not long before the incident, the aircraft had received at least one fully overhauled engine. Obviously the costs of repair to airworthy condition and the fact that it's RAAF Museum policy to generally only fly aircraft types of which they own more than one, led to a static future for the aircraft. I don't know if it was a Howard conversion but I'd doubt it since she seems a fairly stock bird.
By the way, great close up of the B-25 there mate.
Cheers,
Matt
Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:31 am
Roger
Unfortunately VH-SFF no longer flies she belly landed into a field near RAAF Richmond on 19 Nov '96 after an engine failure and was transported back to the RAAF museum for static restoration.
http://www.adastron.com/lockheed/ventura/vh-sff.htm
Shame that she is not still flying but she is at a good home with a history of outstanding restorations.
If you look at the registry ( http://www.warbirdregistry.org/pv1venturaregistry/pv1ventura-33369.html ) you can see she used to be a Howard, so a convincing conversion back to PV-1 can be done, no doubt taking plenty of moolah to do so.
Unfortunately VH-SFF no longer flies she belly landed into a field near RAAF Richmond on 19 Nov '96 after an engine failure and was transported back to the RAAF museum for static restoration.
http://www.adastron.com/lockheed/ventura/vh-sff.htm
Shame that she is not still flying but she is at a good home with a history of outstanding restorations.
If you look at the registry ( http://www.warbirdregistry.org/pv1venturaregistry/pv1ventura-33369.html ) you can see she used to be a Howard, so a convincing conversion back to PV-1 can be done, no doubt taking plenty of moolah to do so.
PV-1's
Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:10 pm
Hi Guys!
Haven't registered since the board changed it's format, talk about procrastinating!
We are indeed restoring aPV-1/GR.V Ventura up here in Canada, thanks Gerry for the plug!
Thanks to Tim Savage as well The landing gear part met the stress test and will be included in the restoration. Wouldn't have another one for the other side would you?
I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate Tim on his fine work with the Digest. If the first two issues are any indication, I'll be maintaining my subscription for a long time!
On the subject of PV's, the Aussie example 'Wiff-Oh' was indeed converted to an executive transport then to a agricultural sprayer. We supplied the complete history of the aircraft when it saw service in the RCAF. As for it being stock......well not completely so. Externally the clues are the absence of the unique 'bat' wing, high profile turret cupola and the one piece windshields.
Internally it is more dramatic with dual PV-2 control wheels and a civilian instrument panel. That being said, it was still a herculean effort to reconvert the conversion!
Don't forget the static restoration going on of the ex-Cuban B-34 Ventura by the guys down at the Sanford-Deland airport in Florida. This is the example that was at Stockton, California based Aero Nostalgia. They intend to display it with the Vigilante that has been mounted at the Naval theme park at the airport along with a Skyknight I believe.
As always we have been providing help to all restoration efforts around the world of these aircraft and as Gerry mentioned, you can track our efforts at www.rcafventura.ca
Hopefully, now that I am back online I can update the PV list here at WRG and help anyone with Ventura history.
Best regards: Tony Jarvis
Ventura Memorial Flight Association
Haven't registered since the board changed it's format, talk about procrastinating!
We are indeed restoring aPV-1/GR.V Ventura up here in Canada, thanks Gerry for the plug!
Thanks to Tim Savage as well
The landing gear part met the stress test and will be included in the restoration. Wouldn't have another one for the other side would you?
I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate Tim on his fine work with the Digest. If the first two issues are any indication, I'll be maintaining my subscription for a long time!
On the subject of PV's, the Aussie example 'Wiff-Oh' was indeed converted to an executive transport then to a agricultural sprayer. We supplied the complete history of the aircraft when it saw service in the RCAF. As for it being stock......well not completely so. Externally the clues are the absence of the unique 'bat' wing, high profile turret cupola and the one piece windshields.
Internally it is more dramatic with dual PV-2 control wheels and a civilian instrument panel. That being said, it was still a herculean effort to reconvert the conversion!
Don't forget the static restoration going on of the ex-Cuban B-34 Ventura by the guys down at the Sanford-Deland airport in Florida. This is the example that was at Stockton, California based Aero Nostalgia. They intend to display it with the Vigilante that has been mounted at the Naval theme park at the airport along with a Skyknight I believe.
As always we have been providing help to all restoration efforts around the world of these aircraft and as Gerry mentioned, you can track our efforts at www.rcafventura.ca
Hopefully, now that I am back online I can update the PV list here at WRG and help anyone with Ventura history.
Best regards: Tony Jarvis
Ventura Memorial Flight Association
Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:06 pm
Matt and Hairy,
Thanks for the info on the PV-1. Didn't know it had come to grief shortly after it's arrival. I got a chance to see it, just a day or so before it left here. Thanks again................Roger
P.S. Matt, here's the whole plane at: http://www.norcalaahs.org/vcbB25P51.jpg
Thanks for the info on the PV-1. Didn't know it had come to grief shortly after it's arrival. I got a chance to see it, just a day or so before it left here. Thanks again................Roger
P.S. Matt, here's the whole plane at: http://www.norcalaahs.org/vcbB25P51.jpg
Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:41 pm
Since there are soo many PV-1/2 fans here, I have another question/teaser.
In Christopher Robbins book 'Air America' there is a picture of a PV-2 used by the Contras taken in Honduras in 1985, it is also mentioned in the text (not very flattering). The PV-2 in question has Four bladed, square tipped props, any info? Also does this make the PV-2 the last WWII a/c to serve in a front line combat role?
In Christopher Robbins book 'Air America' there is a picture of a PV-2 used by the Contras taken in Honduras in 1985, it is also mentioned in the text (not very flattering). The PV-2 in question has Four bladed, square tipped props, any info? Also does this make the PV-2 the last WWII a/c to serve in a front line combat role?
Contra PV
Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:00 pm
hairy wrote:Since there are soo many PV-1/2 fans here, I have another question/teaser.
In Christopher Robbins book 'Air America' there is a picture of a PV-2 used by the Contras taken in Honduras in 1985, it is also mentioned in the text (not very flattering). The PV-2 in question has Four bladed, square tipped props, any info? Also does this make the PV-2 the last WWII a/c to serve in a front line combat role?
I am away from my records now but my understanding is that this was a Howard 500. If memory serves me correctly, it was likely an airframe that came from the SAAF Ventura sale many years ago by D.U. Howard. Will look into this once I get back to the hangar.
Tony Jarvis