P-47 Guru Needed.
Thu May 22, 2008 8:33 pm
Ok guys, I going to commisison an aviation artist render me what my Great Uncle's P-47 looked like. Squadron markings, colors, ect. Here is what I know....
Ninth Air Force
362nd FG
378th FS
Model P-47D-30-RA
Serial Number 44-33116
G8-?
G8 marked his squad but I don't know the final character though.. Any good links or resources I can check?
He was lost to FLAK March 3rd-1945. I have the MACR and have talked to guys that were on the mission when he went down.
Thanks in Advance to any help offered. I wanna make dang sure I got it right before I go off and pay for a piece of work.
Regards,
Mike
Ninth Air Force
362nd FG
378th FS
Model P-47D-30-RA
Serial Number 44-33116
G8-?
G8 marked his squad but I don't know the final character though.. Any good links or resources I can check?
He was lost to FLAK March 3rd-1945. I have the MACR and have talked to guys that were on the mission when he went down.
Thanks in Advance to any help offered. I wanna make dang sure I got it right before I go off and pay for a piece of work.
Regards,
Mike
Thu May 22, 2008 10:36 pm
PM sent
Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:36 pm
Punt
Any suggestions where I could look for for this info? i have bought a book that lists Battle Colors for every squad of the 8th AF. So now I know we had a green cowling with the red above a black stripe on the tail.
I just need that last Identifier Character.
Isn't that funny... I just noticed that the picture at the bottom of the page is a P-47 from Maynards Squadron, but it has a blue cowling, acording to this book, it should be Green. See the G8?
So now I know it wasn't N or A ...
Any suggestions where I could look for for this info? i have bought a book that lists Battle Colors for every squad of the 8th AF. So now I know we had a green cowling with the red above a black stripe on the tail.
I just need that last Identifier Character.
Isn't that funny... I just noticed that the picture at the bottom of the page is a P-47 from Maynards Squadron, but it has a blue cowling, acording to this book, it should be Green. See the G8?
So now I know it wasn't N or A ...
Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:43 pm
Mike hi
I can't help with the individual aircraft letter you are after.
However I just wanted to add the Dana Bell in US Air Force Colours 1942-45 ETO/MTO shows the 378th FS 362FG aircraft as having a blue band around the cowel as from Nov 1944, while the tail marking you mention dates from Feb 1945
Sorry I can't help more, but my main reference material is for the 8th AAF rather than the 9th
Pete
I can't help with the individual aircraft letter you are after.
However I just wanted to add the Dana Bell in US Air Force Colours 1942-45 ETO/MTO shows the 378th FS 362FG aircraft as having a blue band around the cowel as from Nov 1944, while the tail marking you mention dates from Feb 1945
Sorry I can't help more, but my main reference material is for the 8th AAF rather than the 9th
Pete
Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:07 pm
Mike Schneider wrote:Punt
Any suggestions where I could look for for this info? i have bought a book that lists Battle Colors for every squad of the 8th AF. So now I know we had a green cowling with the red above a black stripe on the tail.
How is that going to help if you are looking for 9th AF?
Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:58 pm
Typo, it is 9th, sorry... HAM FISTED
Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:11 pm
The Book I have is from Robert A. Watkins
Volume III Insignia and Tactical Markings of the Ninth Air Force in World War II.
From Schiffer Military History
Do you have a link to the book or site you mention as Dana Bell?
The more I dig into this, the more questions I get, possible colors for the cowling now are Blue, Yellow, Red and Green. LOL....sigh.
There has to be a definative answer out there. Thanks for all the help fellas!
Volume III Insignia and Tactical Markings of the Ninth Air Force in World War II.
From Schiffer Military History
Do you have a link to the book or site you mention as Dana Bell?
The more I dig into this, the more questions I get, possible colors for the cowling now are Blue, Yellow, Red and Green. LOL....sigh.
There has to be a definative answer out there. Thanks for all the help fellas!
Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:13 pm
Found the Dana Bell Book.
This it?
Air Force Colors: Volume 2 ETO & MTO 1942-1945
Author: Dana Bell
Air Force Colors Volume 2 (SC). Bell. Covers US Army Air Force camouflage and markings of ETO & MTO based aircraft during the war years of 1942 to 1945. Over 150 photos, 16 pages of full color profiles and unit markings and insignia.
Format: Softbound
Pages: 96
Length: 8.5w x 11h
ISBN-13: 9780897471084
ISBN: 0897471083
Catalog ID: 125829A
This it?
Air Force Colors: Volume 2 ETO & MTO 1942-1945
Author: Dana Bell
Air Force Colors Volume 2 (SC). Bell. Covers US Army Air Force camouflage and markings of ETO & MTO based aircraft during the war years of 1942 to 1945. Over 150 photos, 16 pages of full color profiles and unit markings and insignia.
Format: Softbound
Pages: 96
Length: 8.5w x 11h
ISBN-13: 9780897471084
ISBN: 0897471083
Catalog ID: 125829A
Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:28 pm
Hey Pete,
I just put 2 and 2 together reading from his MACR.
Firebrick is the 378th squadron. BLUE.... 2. I think this book I have is wrong. Thanks for putting me on the right track, I believe the answer was right in front of me all along.
I just put 2 and 2 together reading from his MACR.
While on a dive bombing mission in the Bingen, Germany area, we let down through the overcast to about 1,500 feet in search of a target. While flying northwest along the Rhine River we got intense heavy and light flak. My wingman and I (Firebrick blue 3 & 4) broke left of our Firebrick Blue flight leader. Blue Two (Lt. Cowles) broke to the right also trying to evade flak. I turned back to the right to see them but the flak was still heavy so I turned left again. I looked back over my shoulder and saw a big cloud of black smoke coming up from the ground. This was just north of Nord Ingelheim, about six miles west of Bingen, Germany. Lt. Cowles was not seen after this.
Firebrick is the 378th squadron. BLUE.... 2. I think this book I have is wrong. Thanks for putting me on the right track, I believe the answer was right in front of me all along.
Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:34 pm
Mike hi
That's the book, well worth getting imo.
The mention of blue here, has nothing to do with the squadron cowl colour
I'm afraid.
Firebrick will be the call sign of the the 362nd FS (A squadron had a different call sign for its A, B & C groups, with a group being 8-12 aircraft depending on the number of pilots and aircraft available).
The basic fighting unit of two aircraft (leader and wingman) was known as an element.
Two elements made a Flight, and two Flights made a Section
Each section therefore comprised of 8 aircraft.
Each flight was identified by a colour, with individual aircraft identified by a number.
So in the case of Firebrick blue 3 & 4, this would be the second element of blue flight.
Other flights would have been Firebrick red, white etc.
In the 8th AAF white was generally the lead flight, red second, yellow third and blue fourth. I don't know if this was the same in the 9th.
If B & C groups where used additional colours were used to avoid confusion with the A group as above.
Hope this all makes sense.
I notice that the 362nd was stationed at Headcorn April - July 1944.
This is only a few miles from here, and still operates as a grass strip . I did a parachute jump there many years ago.
Pete
That's the book, well worth getting imo.
Firebrick blue 3 & 4
The mention of blue here, has nothing to do with the squadron cowl colour
I'm afraid.
Firebrick will be the call sign of the the 362nd FS (A squadron had a different call sign for its A, B & C groups, with a group being 8-12 aircraft depending on the number of pilots and aircraft available).
The basic fighting unit of two aircraft (leader and wingman) was known as an element.
Two elements made a Flight, and two Flights made a Section
Each section therefore comprised of 8 aircraft.
Each flight was identified by a colour, with individual aircraft identified by a number.
So in the case of Firebrick blue 3 & 4, this would be the second element of blue flight.
Other flights would have been Firebrick red, white etc.
In the 8th AAF white was generally the lead flight, red second, yellow third and blue fourth. I don't know if this was the same in the 9th.
If B & C groups where used additional colours were used to avoid confusion with the A group as above.
Hope this all makes sense.
I notice that the 362nd was stationed at Headcorn April - July 1944.
This is only a few miles from here, and still operates as a grass strip . I did a parachute jump there many years ago.
Pete
Last edited by PeteWenman on Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:39 pm
oops double post
Pete
Pete
Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:28 pm
Firebrick will be the call sign of the the 362nd FS
Mogin's Maulers 362nd Fighter Group History says the following:
377th FS as Codename "Argue" E4
378th FS as Codename "Firebrick" G8
379th FS as Codename "Klondike" B8
Back to square 1 on the cowling colors then...
I've emailed every surviving pilot from the 378th that I have email addresses for to ask them personally.
Thanks for the help Pete! there is a memorial marker at Headcorn somewhere remarking on the 362nd...
Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:43 pm
Mike,
I will check my resources tonight and get back with you tomorrow on this. Ken Rust's book 9th Air Force in WWII has markings in the back. I believe the cowl should be green with a red tip on the tail but I will double check.
Regards,
Mark Popejoy
I will check my resources tonight and get back with you tomorrow on this. Ken Rust's book 9th Air Force in WWII has markings in the back. I believe the cowl should be green with a red tip on the tail but I will double check.
Regards,
Mark Popejoy
Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:13 pm
Mike,
As per Ken Rust's The 9th Air Force in WWII (pgs. 198 and 199) it shows the 378th FS as GREEN cowling, code G8 and red tail tip with horizontal black stripe.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Mark
As per Ken Rust's The 9th Air Force in WWII (pgs. 198 and 199) it shows the 378th FS as GREEN cowling, code G8 and red tail tip with horizontal black stripe.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Mark
Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:39 am
I checked my books on the 9th AF also.
The newer(but not that new) Kent Rust 9th book has blue as the color.
Squadron's book on P-47's in Europe as green.
I have a book of color 9th AF photo with a photo of the CO's P-47D (which had a check nose using the squadron's color) drawing used on base and it has yellow red and blue checks.
Not a photo of the real plane.
The newer(but not that new) Kent Rust 9th book has blue as the color.
Squadron's book on P-47's in Europe as green.
I have a book of color 9th AF photo with a photo of the CO's P-47D (which had a check nose using the squadron's color) drawing used on base and it has yellow red and blue checks.
Not a photo of the real plane.